This is the second of the series on beginning farming. If you’d like to hear the first episode on this topic check out my interview with Erin Harvey.

I wanted to speak with Kirsten on this subject because of her candor in some of our conversations about what it’s like to run a farm, yet I didn’t know her story or that of Joshua Farm.

We’ve shared lunch at a farm tour and spoke about broader issues involving urban farming in Harrisburg, our state capital. We’ve attended the same meetings involving local initiatives where Kirsten asked pointed questions and provided personal insights. In many ways she is a mainstay of the regional sustainable farming community, and I’m thankful she’s here. Her passion for farming and devotion to this work is ever-present. I found this out when, during the interview, her doorbell rang. I paused the conversation as she answered the door, and there was a customer to pick up their CSA share. At nearly 9 o’clock at night.

That Kirsten contemplates her role as a farmer and the role of Joshua Farm is also apparent. I say that because I think is the least I’ve spoken during an interview. Each time I was ready to interject and ask a question, her narrative continued in the direction I planned to take us, and the unspoken question was answered.

Lastly among my many reasons for interviewing Kirsten is that I visited Joshua Farm.  Being local, this site provided a place I could go to in order to learn and in turn provide a more useful interview.

After the interview wrapped there were some things Kirsten wanted to add that didn’t make it into the interview proper.

One of those is “SPIN Farming”, which is a program designed to get a small scale farm up and running, profitably, in a short amount of time. Though Kirsten doesn’t agree with everything in this method, there are some pieces that you may find useful. There is some information on the website, though most of the content appears to be made available through purchased PDF downloads or books, at various price points, with the total package running several hundred dollars. I can’t speak to the content or value of this product, and am not endorsing it in any way, but you can find out more by going to spinfarming.com and taking a look around. There is a mix of freely available content to get you started, and see if you might be interested.

Her other recommendation I noted was Growing for Market magazine, which offers numerous resources for farmer’s who grow to sell. I’m not familiar with it beyond Kirsten’s mention, but when I went to the main page of the website, there was Richard Wiswall with a recommendation for the magazine.

I mention Richard Wiswall because Kirsten recommended his book The Organic Farmer’s Business Handbook. For the number of times I’ve heard his name and this book mentioned, it seems like the perfect place to start your research into the business of starting your own farm.

Looking into Agsquared farm planning software the current feature set includes:

• Interactive Farm Map.
• Crop Planner.
• Planting Calculators.
• Daily Calendar.
• Smart Scheduling.
• Farm Journal.
• Spreadsheet Importer.

This is all supported with extensive training materials and email support, but does not include harvest tracking. I think that’s probably where the Spreadsheet Importer comes in. You can check out a free 30 day trial at Agsquared.com. Should you choose to purchase, the price is $60 a year. As a technology person I like that this is accessible across many mediums including computer, tablet, and smart phone.

Resources:
Joshua Farm
The Joshua Group

Agsquared
Growing for Market
Richard Wiswall

Farms:
Goldfinch Farm CSA
Greensgrow Farms
Mildred’s Daughter

The Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture, abbreviated by locals as PASA, was created in 1992 as a way to promote profitable farms that produce healthy food while respecting the natural environment. PASA is the largest statewide, member-based sustainable farming organization in the United States. This organization does a ton of good work in Pennsylvania with a variety of programs, but the two that have the most impact on me, and I think is of value to other permaculture practitioners, the is Farm Based Education and the Farming for the Future Conference. The farm based education is how I went to the Energy for Your Farm event and PASA holds these kinds of activities all the time. A few coming up as I write this are: “Forest Farming for Wild Edibles: Ramps, Nettles, Fiddleheads, and More”, “Animal Handling Workshop for New & Beginning Farmers”, and another Renewable Energy for the Farm focusing on micro-hydro. All of these have application to people interested in permaculture, and let you get out and see farms in operation. This last part matters because if you aren’t farming, or near a rural area, it’s hard to get a grasp on the broadscale picture. These events also let you network with people interested in sustainable practices.

All those ideas are at play with PASA’s Farming for the Future conference. Held shortly after the new year in central Pennsylvania, this conference condenses what you can do throughout the year via Farm Based Education into four amazing days of workshops, lectures, keynote speakers and other events. Not to mention that this event draws around 2,000 people from all over. You’re likely to find someone who knows more about any particular interest you might have relating to sustainable agriculture, and is willing to share what they know.

But neither of these resources would be available without the aid of the farmers who make it happen. For this most recent workshop, I was at Village Acres Farm. An organic operation in Mifflintown, PA, run by Roy and Hope Brubaker, they recently transitioned into a partnership with Debra, Roy’s daughter, making this a multi-generational operation that is also inter-generational as other family members own and operate Blue Rooster Farm nearby and provide meat for the on-farm CSA. Another interesting aspect of the farm, and something I wouldn’t have learned about without this farm based experience, was the FoodShed. Though a simple name, the building this name encapsulates is a gorgeous timber framed design with a radiant floor, passive solar lighting, and other energy efficient and sustainable features. Here they serve food from the commercial kitchen and hold a variety of events. This is where we had lunch that day, and I was very thankful that the family members who served us were understanding of food allergies.

We’re almost to the material from the workshop, but remember, this show is listener supported. Find out how to lend a hand by going to: thepermaculturepodcast.com/support and remember to like the show on facebook, facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast or follow me on twitter: @permaculturecst.

Now then, the field day. In covering this I focus mostly on the question and answer material we covered during the class. I say this because charcoal and biochar production is something you should experience to get a understanding of. So, give a listen, look at the pictures on the website, check out some videos, and sign-up for a workshop. This is a great hands on project for any gardener, farmer, or permaculture practitioner.

Gary Gilmore with his Charcoal Gasifier in the background.

Our workshop was taught by Gary Gilmore, a Forester for the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, and, as someone identified him that day, a “char-vangelist”. He’s passionate about the possibilities of charcoal and bio-char for a more productive, local, and thriving culture. So much so that it’s almost infectious. His background combined with the science involved from his current occupation tied together such that the session was science and numbers heavy. I’m including the pieces I understood enough to write down and will include everything I can.

We began the day, after introductions, with charcoal and bio-char production.

What is Charcoal or Biochar?

Both are essentially the same thing: carbon, along with some oxygen, hydrogen, and minerals, left over after burning the source material in a low-oxygen, or oxygen-free, environment. They are very similar end products and the distinction is in how we use them.

Charcoal is larger and used primarily as fuel. If you think about lump charcoal, not the briquettes, this is about what charcoal produced at home looks like when it first comes out of the kiln. Mr. Gilmore, during the second section of the class, showed us his grinder that he uses to make the charcoal a uniform size for gasification.

Bio-char, on the other side, is very fine, to the point of resembling black dust or powder that is in turn used as a soil amendment by digging it into the garden. This fine material has a much much larger surface area by volume, allowing for more nutrient holding, water retention, and the other benefits currently being researched.

Though the terms can be used interchangeably, for this conversation, charcoal is for fuel, and has one set of characteristics, and biochar is used for a soil amendment.

What about Direct vs. Indirect production?

TLUD Direct Production Kiln. Primary air comes in through the bottom.

Direct production is where you burn wood directly in order to produce charcoal. This can be done as simply as with two metal barrels, one on the bottom to hold the wood with holes in the bottom for primary air intake, and another larger barrel on top acting as the afterburner to create cleaner combustion. This is known as a Top Light Up Draft gasifier, or TLUD, as the fire is lit from the top and burned downward, which causes gasification, and the gases move up and are ignited. The primary air from the holes in the bottom of the barrel allow the wood to burn, while secondary air, coming up through the crack between the two barrels where they meet, is the secondary air flow that aids final combustion. This design is very very clean burning. Once it got started there was little to no visible smoke.
All of the demonstrations at this workshop were with this TLUD style of direct production.

Indirect production is what you might see where there’s one barrel inside of another, or a specially built biochar kiln where an external fire is applied to the

TLUD Kiln with afterburner in place. Very little smoke.

material to be converted into bio-char. In this case heat is applied from the outside to “bake” the material inside, driving off volatile gases, and turning it into charcoal.

What do I use to make charcoal or biochar?

Mr. Gilmore recommended making Charcoal out of wood that had air-dried for one year, which means it has about a 20% moisture content, considerably lower than fresh cut wood. This wood should come from the heart of the tree and not contain a great deal of bark, as bark contains more minerals which leads to more ash. Instead, bark is excellent for biochar.

Using indirect production, you can use just about any garden refuse you want, because the process doesn’t require the material being turned into biochar to fuel the process directly. Material with higher mineral content, such as wood bark or green plant material, work well in this case, as the mineral content helps to build the soil.

What is the difference between High Temperature vs. Low Temperature production?

High temperature production, via the indirect method, produces a higher quality fuel because the pyrolysis drives off more of the oxygen, hydrogen, and other materials. High temperature production is not appropriate for use as bio-char. Low temperature production, in the 600-800 degree range, produces a material that is around 70% carbon, 30% other materials, and is useful for both fuel and soil amendment.

The direct method uses some of the source material as fuel, leaving you with around 60% of the starting weight in charcoal. The indirect method is more efficient for converting to charcoal, leaving you around 70% of the starting weight, but requiring external energy to produce, leading to a potentially less efficient system. I have seen indirect methods that cycle the volatile off-gases back into the firebox to increase efficiency. Time and tests will tell which works better, but to get you started the direct method is great.

I’m interested in biochar production as a way to turn multiflora rose and mile-a-minute into something useful for my garden, as they are rather pernicious non-natives that quickly spread and smother out other vegetation. In my interest to design myself out of the system, reducing them in my area is important while the system establishes itself and can better minimize this kind of rapidly spreading plant.

How much charcoal or biochar can you get from your source material?

I don’t have number on garden waste, because of how much this varies from plant to plant, when you cut it, etc. However, for wood, it’s a little more straight forward, though of course your end results will vary, but your end result is about 40%, by weight, of what you started with.

For those of you interested in the numbers, I came to this figure because Mr. Gilmore recommended using wood that had air dried for one year, which is about 20% moisture, then burned through direct production. Fresh wood is around 50% moisture. So if you start with 10 lbs of freshly cut wood, after 1 year you’ll have 7lbs of wood ready to go in the kiln. You lose another 40% through pyrolysis, 20% being the moisture driven off and 20% as fuel, resulting in about 4lbs of charcoal in the end.

Charcoal, biochar, and climate change.

When we hear conversations with people such as Connor Stedman or Eric Toensmeier about taking action to mitigate climate change, with things like carbon farming, what role does charcoal production and biochar play in that?

Charcoal represents, to the best of my understanding, a carbon neutral fuel source if, and that if is very important, we use well managed wood lots and industrial waste, such as lumber mill refuse, to provide the base material in a way where we grow what we burn at an equal replacement rate, while using that material for both fuel and charcoal. For every pound of material harvested, we need a pound of growth to replace it. In this way, the wood takes carbon out of the air to grow and then returns it when combusted. That’s a simple recycling of material. Where this doesn’t work is in using fossil fuels to burn material grown specifically for charcoal or bio-char production.

Where things get more interesting is in the using this as a soil amendment. Carbon, in the form of biochar, is very very stable in the soil and can last for centuries. There’s evidence that the terra preta from which the idea of biochar arose, is pre-columbian in nature and dating back over 1,000 years ago. That’s a long time for this to be locked up in the earth. According to Mr. Gilmore, for every pound of carbon sequestered in this way, we keep upwards of 3.5lbs of CO2 from forming due to decay of the original material. And it can be done on a home scale.

However, and I hope this points to the question about whether or not this is really carbon negative, a point raised by Brent Virrill on the facebook page announcing this episode, the value Mr. Gilmore gave is correct about 1lb (454g) of carbon sequestering around 3.5lbs (1.66kg) of eventual CO2, a figure confirmed by two friends who know a lot more about chemistry than I do, is an ideal theoretical maximum conversion of carbon into CO2, which is not reflective of what actually happens through the biological cycling processes that lock-up and then release CO2, so the actual ratio of sequestration is probably lower than that 3.5lb figure. Also, as low temperature biochar production results in a product around 70% carbon and 30% other, you’d need to bury 1.4lbs of bio-char to sequester that 3.5lbs.

In creating biochar, for it to be carbon negative, the inputs need to be small enough in carbon output relative to the storage potential so the inputs don’t outweigh the sequestration value, which may be one of the issues of industrial versus small scale production of bio-char. Gasoline releases 19lbs of CO2 per gallon burned, while diesel releases around 22lbs. Using gasoline equivalence figures, natural gas requires around 128cu/ft for the same amount of heat energy (measured in BTUs), which releases 15lbs of CO2 on complete combustion, and bituminous coal requires 10lbs and releases 28.6lbs of CO2.

Now, with all these numbers rolling around, you can see why using gasoline or diesel to transport the material to a central location, then moving the final product out again to where it’s used, and then digging it in with machinery can quickly deplete the benefits of burying biochar in the ground for sequestration on an industrial scale. Once you include fossil fuels to create this material there’s even greater loss of how much carbon is stored versus created.

Though this was a quick shot that’s number heavy, I was going to include a lot more of math here to break down how charcoal and biochar production converts between these different fuel sources, but I wasn’t confident I had everything right. The few pieces I could find that gave numbers don’t show the work from point A to B and I don’t want to extrapolate that. If someone knows the numbers behind how much energy is required to convert wood to charcoal and can do a comparison between the different fuels, please let me know.

But, bio-char has other values to us when buried beyond just carbon sequestration.

Biochar in the soil.

So, what does biochar do when we add it to the soil? The reported benefits are many, here’s a sample:

Enhanced plant growth.
Suppressed methane emission.
Reduced nitrous oxide emissions.
Reduced fertilizer requirements.
Reduced leaching of nutrients.

These last three in particular were of interest to Mr. Gilmore because of the impact they have on waterways regarding nutrient runoff. As I’ve mentioned before, reducing the daily total load from run off into streams and rivers in my watershed is very important because of the impact it on the Chesapeake Bay. Integrating biochar and reaping these benefits is one pathway to do this.

Two things you need to do in order to use the biochar. The first is to make sure it is a small size, like dust or grains of sand. This is where using garden waste for conversion comes in because grass and leaves are finer grained to begin with and power readily. Whatever you need to do to get them to this point, go for it. I’m thinking my 3yo son and a butter churn filled with charcoal is the ideal way to reduce charcoal to powder, but Mr. Gilmore commented about mixing it with wood chips and spreading it over a section of his driveway and letting vehicle traffic reduce it over time. His current process is to add the course charcoal to his horse stalls where the horses tramp it down, while also mixing their urine and manure with the charcoal.

This leads to the second point recommended by both Mr. Gilmore and Dale Hendricks, another biochar enthusiast who attended the course to assist, to charge the bio-char. Charging is introducing an initial source of nutrients into the biochar before incorporating it into the soil. In addition to animal pens, there was a suggestion of adding biochar to a composting toilet in place of brown material, or as the main absorbant in a urine bucket, or mix it with compost or compost tea.

One thought Mr. Gilmore had, and I’m interested in experimenting with or hearing from you if you’ve done so, is if you can use charged biochar directly as a growing medium, without any soil or other additives. Have you tried this? Let me know.

Gasification as Energy

Mr. Gilmore’s homemade charcoal grinder.

After lunch we talked about using charcoal as a fuel source. Opening this conversation Mr. Gilmore began by holding a can of gasoline and bundle of wood. The two fuels are roughly equivalent in energy: one gallon of gasoline to 25lbs of air-dried, seasoned wood. If you burn wood directly, you get about the same amount of energy. But, you can also use the wood in a wood gas generator to create syngas, short for synthetic gas, by using the pyrolysis method to generate charcoal and biochar to drive off the volatile gases in the wood, which an internal combustion engine can use directly with little to no modification. Another option, is to create charcoal and use it for gasification into syngas to run an engine. Of these three methods, Mr. Gilmore prefers using charcoal gasification because the charcoal gas generator system is less complicated than a wood gas generator, and will still run his engine directly.

Rather than get into the full details of the difference between these two systems, what I can say is that the benefits of a wood gas generator is that it is more efficient in time because you don’t need to convert you fuel from wood into charcoal, and more efficient in generating gas because you don’t lose the 20% of so you would in burning the wood to charcoal. However, the wood gas generator is more complicated because you need to include traps in the system for the moisture being driven off as well as the ash, tar, and other materials that can gum up or degrade an engine. Also, because of inconsistencies between outputs from various woods, a way to control the gas flow into the engine is also important.

If you want to learn more about wood gasification there are websites devoted to it, and there is also a book recommended during the workshop called “Have Wood Will Travel” written by Wayne Keith. You can buy it directly from Wayne at his website, driveonwood.com, for the price of $50. Seeing what Mr. Wayne is doing by driving with wood gas already has my mind turning for other, down the road, projects.

But, what I got to see the day of the workshop was Mr. Gilmore’s functioning charcoal gasifier, which he ran to show us that yes, this does work, and how everything was setup.

The burning charcoal gasifier.

The basis of the system was a barrel to burn the charcoal in, with an air inlet consisting of a piece of 1” threaded pipe, which I believe was stainless steel, going through a homemade bulkhead into the barrel, about a ¼ of the way up from the bottom. Attached to the outside of this pipe was a valve. On the inside, this was covered with a larger piece of iron pipe with about a quarter of it’s circumference removed, lengthwise, to create a shield to cover the inlet. Charcoal is added on top and shaken down into the bottom. The lid is then added, which has an outlet that attaches via a piece of plastic tube to a filter can. Inside the filter can, from top to bottom, is a piece of wool fabric sewn to a metal wire shaped to fit the top of the can fairly tightly. Beneath this is a thick section of open cell foam rubber, and beneath that wool fabric scraps. Mr. Gilmore uses wool as part of his filter based on some research he read from Australian charcoal gasifiers that wool is one of the better natural filters. The filter connects by more tubing to an electric fan that creates a draw to move the gas from the gasifier through the filter to the engine, with the tubing from the fan running directly into the carburetor for uptake by the engine. The exhaust from the engine is then routed back to a valve connected to the inlet so some of the exhaust gases can be recycled, producing cleaner combustion. The valve allows for control of this gas flow being recycled to control the combustion temperature, as the exhaust gases are hotter than the charcoal gas being generated. From there, the final gases run out through a combined radiator and exhaust.

One note here is that the charcoal gas for most of the burn is fairly cool, under 120 degrees. The piece of plastic pipe Mr. Gilmore uses to connect the gasification barrel to the filter is one of his fail-safes, because it melts at 120 degrees. If something happens that the system temperature rises too much, this pipe fails and prevents damage to the other components.

Once everything is setup and connected, it is lit through the inlet pipe near the bottom of the charcoal barrel. Within maybe a few minutes of lighting the system, Mr. Gilmore started the gasoline engine on the charcoal gas and allowed it to run for 15 or 20 minutes while we talked about and explored how it worked.

The engine attached to the system was a standard, unmodified 10hp gasoline engine. Using charcoal gas, the system produces around 8hp because charcoal gas is less energetic than gasoline with a resulting loss of around 20 to 25%. He estimates he could run this engine for about an hour to an hour and a half on around 6lbs of charcoal, whereas he has a larger 25 hp engine, with a resulting 20hp output, that runs for around 30 minutes on the same amount of fuel, all off of the basic system he showed us with a 1” inlet and outlet for air and gas flow. He thinks that a 25hp base engine is about the limit for a 1” flow setup, but that by increasing the inlet and outlet size it scales up easily, with a similar increase in fuel consumption as well, so you’d need to include a larger gasifier unit, filter, fan, and so on as things get larger.

What really got me about this system is the potential to do real work with unmodified or lightly modified existing machinery, without fossil fuels. These aren’t novelty applications, as was reinforced by Mr. Gilmore talking about running his 25hp walk-behind tractors on charcoal gas, and he even ran a vintage air-cooled beetle Volkswagen on it, traveling about 11 miles in his tests. That’s one side, the other is that this can be used to generate electricity as we saw from a pair of lights attached to, and run off of, the charcoal gas demonstration system. This is small scale portable solution that could be used now in emergencies, or off in off-grid arrangements as back up to solar and wind, or as a possible long term solution for local generation of power.

And, as was stated several times during the workshop, cool and cold weather is the time to produce charcoal and biochar from the previous year’s brush and scrap wood, so you could potentially build a charcoal kiln as a heater so as not to let all that energy go to waste. Creativity with good design leads to many many yields in this system. One participant in the workshop commented about using the exhaust from a gasifier to warm and elevate the CO2 levels in a greenhouse. Though I’m sure there would have to be safety measures in place, so as not to cause safety issues due to the carbon monoxide and other gases in the exhaust, it is a possibility.

Which, is where the warning goes, making one of these systems is not inherently dangerous, but there are risks involved. If you don’t feel comfortable with something, don’t do it! Work with someone with more experience to build or design your solution and learn to operate it safely.

I’m also not going to argue that these are the most efficient systems around by any means for producing useful work, creating electricity, or the time required to do so, but they remain options that can make a difference for the choices we make in our desire to build a better world. It’s not about a one size fits all solution for everyone, but a series of options to use where appropriate to build more flexible alternatives.

Champion TLUD stove.

That also goes for another use of gasification, and that was a TLUD stove design Mr. Dale Hendricks of Green Light Plants shared with us that day. The particular stove he brought is called a Champion TLUD and is based on an award winning design from a cleaner burning stove competition. The idea behind this is the same as the wood gasification for charcoal production, and the stove even produces a small quantity of charcoal, except in this case applying the designed to a small scale for cooking.

One note here is that if you use this type of stove to cook and produce charcoal, you’ll want a bucket of water several times the size of your stove with water in it to quench the charcoal in when you are done cooking. A handle on your stove to lift and move it probably helps too. In his demonstration Mr, Hendricks used compressed hardwood pellets for fuel, and I thought it was a simple way to use pellets that might have been damaged by moisture and no longer usable in a regular wood pellet stove. I say this because I have several bags sitting around at the moment a friend gave me after their basement flooded and a stove like this fits easily in my thoughts.

This TLUD stove is another option to include for emergencies, or potentially to replace other forms of stoves in off the grid or no-grid situations. There’s plenty of information available on how to build your own if you are interested, as well as people making them for purchase. Consider experimenting with this and adding your experiences to the growing pool of knowledge on these simple, yet revolutionary, systems.

Woodlot Management

That brings us to the final part of the workshop material, which was woodlot management. Being a forester by training, Mr. Gilmore shared with us how to apply the way a forester thinks with our production of charcoal and biochar.

To that end we started with a conversation about invasive species that kill trees, such as the emerald ash borer here in Pennsylvania and other parts of the U.S. Knowing your local area and what threats there are to your trees lets you make choices. If a tree is highly likely to be killed, you can harvest it before that happens and make use of what you can, or be prepared to cut it down when it does die and know what you’ll do under the new conditions.

From there we walked into a woodlot at Village Acres Farm, and began by looking up at the canopy, or over-story, trees to see which ones won the war for sunlight. The losers could be selectively harvested to open up more of the canopy to allow success to begin in that spot, and use the removed tree for charcoal production or some other means.

But, before making that choice, after looking up, we looked around to identify the trees that were there. To see which ones are rare, so should be preserved, which ones are unique for some reason, such as trees having a unique or pleasant form, which ones you might consider invasive and want to remove, or which ones might be valuable for coppicing. Using that information, then make decisions on which to keep and which to remove based on your overall site plan and usage patterns.

While doing so, be sure you don’t mine the woods for resources, because then a process that could be sustainable becomes extractive. Rather, make the choices so that you can regenerate the forest as you make use of it. One point Mr. Gilmore made was to not remove the down woody material on the forest floor. The twigs, sticks, and limbs we find resting against the soil play an important role in maintaining soil fertility and supporting fungi, so should be left. I was left with the impression that selectively removing and using trees had a lower impact on the forest ecology than scavenging for what can be found on the forest floor.

Going back to the invasive, or non-native, or exotic plants for a moment, I’m of a mind that removing some of the more pernicious ones to you area, to help re-establish the succession of local woodlands, is important, and also provide a resource for bio-char production through the indirect method that could be quite useful for soil amending while leaving trees and other dense woody material in place. I know the native/non-native, native/invasive, native/exotic conversation is still open to a lot of debate and one we’ll keep circling around for a while. For me, thinking about the problem as the solution, and in turn obtaining a yield, converting this material that I don’t want into something I do plays a role in my long term strategy.

And since I mentioned the word of a hot subject, we did touch on coppicing, but by this point in the day information was tossed around quicker than I could make notes. So here’s what I did pick up:

- In Pennsylvania and other northern hemisphere cool temperate climate areas, the time to coppice trees is during the plants dormant period, which is the months of R: January, February, March, April, September, October, November, December.
- Evergreens like pine or hemlock do not coppice.
- Deciduous trees generally do.
- Deciduous should be ones that do not form root suckers, such as locust or aspen. There were also comments that beech and birch do not coppice well, but I didn’t note why.
- Trees mentioned that do coppice well: maple, oak, ash, willow, hickory, black walnut, hazel, and chinese chestnut.
- To coppice, you want to cut the tree down to a stump nearly at ground level, perhaps a few inches high, and at a slight angle to allow water to run off and not rot the stump. This forms a new crown that additional growth occurs from.

Coppicing wrapped up the conversation and brought the workshop to a close. We walked out of the woodlot, said our goodbyes, and went our separate ways.

Listener Questions

Now then, the listener questions, submitted by Brent via the Facebook page.

Hugelkultur vs. Biochar

“I would like to understand more about why hugelkultur is more highly recommended for colder climates, while biochar is recommended for warmer climates. I understand why you might not want to bury wood in tropical areas. Because there is no cold cycle, bacterial and fungal action are amped up in tropical soils and break down all organic matter faster. But I don’t see why biochar wouldn’t work as well in colder climates as it does in warmer ones, perhaps even in conjunction with wood.”

To the question specifically regarding non-tropical regions: biochar works and there’s no reason not to implement it as part of your overall strategy where appropriate. Using the permaculture zone model, I wouldn’t dig it into zones 3, 4, or 5, but would certainly include it in the hole for trees and shrubs when planting them, and incorporate it fully in garden and production beds in zones 1 and 2.

More broadly, I think what’s going on with hugelkultur compared to biochar is that hugelkultur is more widely understood as a technique and less intensive to implement, while still providing benefits such as a raised bed, improving the garden conditions, and building the soil. Though you can dig a trench to bury the woody material for the bed, it isn’t necessary. Pile it all in place, dump soil and compost on it, mulch it, let it age if so inclined, and eventually plant in it. I like hugelkultur because my children and I can collect the material in one place while playing in the yard, or I can start building a new bed as I find things without having to complete it all at once. Hugelkultur can also be taught in an hour or two and people can go home and start right away.

Biochar, on the other hand, takes time to gather the materials, some equipment to create it in, even if it’s just a pair of metal barrels, and then remaining with it to manage the burn. Yes, you can do some other work while it’s burning, but should remain with it on fire watch. Once done, it needs reduced to a powder, charged, and then dug into the A and B horizons of the soil. This is considerably more work than hugelkultur, and limits implementation on a broader scale.

Brent also asked about whether or not biochar is truly carbon negative, which I think I handled to some degree earlier. If you’d like more research and contemplation of that, please let me know and I can work something with more detail.

“I wonder about the wisdom of single purpose biochar kilns. I see things on the internet, youtube videos, instructables, even products you can buy, and most especially kilns that charities are making for developing countries, and I cringe. All that energy that could have been useful for something is wasted to make biochar. Biochar is great and all, but wouldn’t it make sense to make use of all that heat?”

I agree with you on the idea of search for other solutions and ways we can use that heat, but from the designs I’ve seen of single purpose biochar kilns they’re potentially an efficient way to convert non-woody material, like grass, dry leaves, or end of season plant stalks and so on, into biochar because they are usually an indirect means of production with a sealed chamber heated by an external source, allowing the moisture in the plant material to be cooked off and then convert what’s left into charcoal in a controlled way, something that isn’t as easy to do with this finer material in a direct system. These also allow the ash, and the mineral content contained within, to be collected as an added benefit to building soil with biochar.

This goes back to one thing that Mr. Gilmore and Mr. Hendricks mentioned several times during the workshop: charcoal and biochar production is based on ancient systems we’re rediscovering in the modern era.

What that leads me to is that making charcoal and biochar isn’t hard. Where the difficulty rests is when we start thinking about how to use all our knowledge in the current age and these big brains of ours to eek out the widest range of yields for the system like the most efficient kilns or determining which biochar is more effective for soil building. The designs that exist at this moment represent some of the earliest, simplest options we’ve come up with us as we figure all that out. As these design advance and we continue to learn we should be able to produce more, with less, and increase the benefits benefit from all the possibilities.

Or at least, that’s my thought on it. What’s yours? I’d love to hear from you. If you have a comment or question about this show, a guest request, or want me to cover a particular topic, please feel free to contact me through any of the many ways available:

E-mail: show [at] thepermaculturepodcast [dot] com
Phone: 7one7-8two7-6two66
A direct message on twitter: @permaculturecst
A message on facebook: facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast

Resources:
Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture
Village Acres Farm
Gary Gilmore’s Youtube Videos
Biochar @ Pbworks
Wayne Keith – Drive on Wood
TLUD (Biochar) Stoves @ International Biochar Initiative

I interviewed Stephen at the request of my teacher and friend Ben Weiss. Stephen’s work was on my radar, but given the many potential guests filling that screen, and the release schedule for the show, it can take time to get to someone. Hearing from listeners, of which Ben is one, helps change priorities so a guest you are interested in gets included in the show sooner.

What intrigued me about Stephen, as you’ll hear in our conversation, is his eloquence and viewpoint on a position. He’s spent a lifetime on the path that I intersected at the time of this conversation, and it shows. His pursuits result in a breadth of knowledge and consideration for his interests.

When preparing for this interview I encountered this idea on his website:

“He is a tireless advocate for the reincorporation of the exploratory artist, independent scholar, amateur naturalist, and citizen scientist in American society – especially as a counterweight to the influence of corporate science and technology.”

That forms the place where we start the conversation. Along the way we talk about education, sense experiences, the difference between schooling and education, holistic knowledge, community, and also to trust the individual genius of people. As always, that is only a glimpse of the depth that Stephen shares with us. For those of you who are more familiar with his herbal work, that will need to be discussed another time.

Though I’m still contemplating many of the things we covered in this interview, some points stand out.

The first is that Stephen found his own way and has been crafting a life out of it ever since. Though the path has crossed many jobs along the way, his direction continues ever onward. As many of you heard from my story of permaculture, there are many way to get where we want to go, so long as we remember the goal and enjoy the trip along the way.

The second is to trust the individual genius of people. We all have gifts or talents that may go untapped in our day to day lives but those can be rekindled. You can reconnect with your own life, your community (however that is defined), and with the earth to live the life you want. Pam Warhurst and I spoke to the of trusting people as well, something I find we don’t always do. If we want to build a better world, that requires us to trust in our self and each other.

Third, is to find your own education. Become an educated person in your own right. For some, that may be schooling because of the niche they fill, or to read, write, and discuss with others to ask questions, consider the results critically, and find your own answers. To become that citizen artist, philospher, or scientist that finds more connections about the world, and the way we can think differently.

The last point is to trust your own feelings. We have a role to play in this greater world, and in finding our own satisfaction. Society doesn’t value all these things equally, or at all, so you may not be able to make a living at your passion but that doesn’t mean that because it doesn’t make dollars that it doesn’t make sense.

In whatever way you use this information, remember to never let discouragement set you off the path. There are many stories of success that forget to mention the failures that happened along the way. As I said in my tale, it took me over 15 years to get to the point where I could even consider the road I’m on. And I’ve got a long way to go yet.

But I’m glad you’re along with me for the journey.

If you ever have any questions or comments, or there is a way I can help you on your path to permaculture, never hesitate to contact me:

E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepocast (dot) com
Phone: Seven-One-Seven-827-6-Two-66

This episode is an audio version of “All Roads Lead to Permaculture” an article written by a friend of the show Andy Russell, who runs the excellent blog Autonomy Acres.

Andy reached out to me several months ago and ever since then I’ve been following his work through his website. When I read his post, I wanted to include it in the show somehow. Thankfully, Andy was open to recording it in his own voice for me to share with you, adding another perspective on the path to permaculture.

Listening to Andy’s piece while putting together the episode left me thinking about Fred Rogers the host of Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood, a long running popular children’s program in the United States that my wife and I watch with our young children. Watching that show again as an adult I realize that Mr. Roger’s continually reminds us that we are special. We are unique. I think about that every time I hear someone else’s perspective on permaculture. How they came to it, why it matters to them, why they do it. In each story, regardless of how removed it is from my own, is something to connect with.

Though we might not always agree with someone, what they have to say, or sometimes focus on the differences between us, in the end we’re all human and I think we have more in common with one another than differences. It’s connecting at the personal level that matters. Sharing an interest in family. In sports. In woodworking, or basket weaving, or art.

Growing food. Taking care of one another. Building community. Let’s focus on that. And create a better world.

Resources:
All Roads Lead to Permaculture (Original Article)
Autonomy Acres
Andy Russell

That book Eric is working on, and needs your help with, examines perennial solutions to stabilizing and reducing the impacts of climate change, and to help bolster a reduction of fossil fuels, including an eventual transition to a petro-chemical free future. Our conversation, though a bit nerdy at times, expands the thinking on potential yields in a system, and how we can creatively respond to change.

I find his decision to use crowd-funding as a model fascinating because of how it connects authors and producers with their audience, allowing them to combine efforts to create works of value in a way equitable to everyone involved. Here is the idea of collaboration, not competition, being used in a horizontal way.

His kickstarter campaign runs until April 30th. At this point he’s not quite halfway to his goal, but making steady climbs, including my own donation to his cause.

He and I got a little geeky on the industrial perennial possibilities, but I keep turning over all those yields, many of which I didn’t know about. Milkweed (Asclepias L.) is of particular interest because it grows readily here in central Pennsylvania and is the host species for the monarch butterfly (Danaus plexippu). What other creative or novel solutions exist we haven’t begun to consider yet? What ways have you thought of to make a difference with permaculture that’s new to you? I’d love to hear from you.

E-mail: show [at] thepermaculturepodcast [dot] com
Phone: Seven-One-Seven 827-Six-Two-66

The two articles that form the genesis for this book can be found here:
Perennial Staple Crops of the World
Stabilizing the Climate with Permanent Agriculture

Resources:
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions

Kickstarter Campaign for Writing the Carbon Farming Toolkit.

Our conversation, broadly, covers Agroforestry, what it is, the various techniques, and what we can learn from these practices as permaculturists. Mushroom cultivation and forest gardens are woven throughout. Two terms of particular interest are Analog Design and Upcycling, which I leave Steve to explain.

His experience with academic research blended with permaculture, and his articulate explanation of the material at hand, even when I throw some unplanned curveballs in the process, make this a nice extension to several of the past interviews, including Ethan Hughes and Dr. Bern Sweeney. After you listen to Steve, I recommend going back through the archives, if you haven’t heard them, and listen to those other guests or any others that catch your eye (or, should that be ear?). The pieces start to fall into place about how all the conversations, past, present, and yet to come, about both visible and invisible structures are connected within the web of Permaculture.

Help Steve, and Dr. Mudge, with their project to document forest farms!
If you are a forest farmer: Take the Survey.
If you’re interested in Forest Farms: Support the Book (Indie Go Go).

Resources:
Steve Gabriel
Dr. Ken Mudge
Farming the Woods
Indie Go Go Campaign to Support Farming The Woods
Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute
North-East Mushroom Growers Network (Cornell)
The Redesigned Forest by Chris Maser
U.S. Forest Service Climage Change Atlas

I wanted to talk to David because of my curiosity. His contributions to this field are many, but what I knew of him and his work was a mystery. Rather than continue on with conjecture, why not talk to him? From conversations with the listeners and other practitioners I knew there was a desire to know more about David; To hear his own words, in his own voice.

During this conversation we talk about the early days of permaculture, his development with Bill Mollison of the core concepts, as well as his work over the years through each of three waves of environmentalism he identifies: the limits of resources in the 1970s, the limits of what we can put into the environment during the 1980s and 90s, and the convergence of these two ideas over the last decade or so. The last portion of the interview is about how to continue to grow permaculture, which took a direction that, initially, surprised me.

Resources:
David Holmgren
Permaculture Principles

Novel Ecosystems
Introduction (Wiki)
Novel Ecosystems: Theoretical and Management Aspects of the New Ecological World Order (PDF)
Perspective: Is Everything A Novel Ecosystem? (PDF)

I was struck by her work in planting edible landscapes because it happens with volunteers, not a whole lot of money, and often without permission. As I learned in our conversation, this is also done without endless talks and meetings. This is a movement about action.

Incredible Edible is more than growing food, but also educating people, growing businesses, and fostering community. Here is a way to build not only a better world, but a kinder one as well.

Resources:
Incredible Edible Todmorden

Pam’s TED Talk:

When Josh came to my attention, I was fascinated by the amount of classes and workshops being offered by the San Diego Sustainable Living Institute, and then in scheduling the show, also by the passion he has for teaching and sharing permaculture. With our time together, the conversation covers his own long passage to permaculture, the work of the institute, and dry land permaculture techniques. Along the way his love of all these things, and his experience, come through.

Resources:
People:
Josh Robinson
Brad Lancaster
Chris Anderson
Karen Taylor
Lisa Rayner
Matt Berry
Penny Livingston-Stark

Organizations:
San Diego Sustainable Living Institute
Lama Foundation
Prescott College

This invisible structure theme began when I first spoke with Adam and I’ve wanted to follow up on it for some time. What we are capable of as individuals is multiplied when we come together. Many hands make light work whether designing a landscape, working out the details of an alternative economic system, or building community. In Permaculture, there’s plenty of work on backyard permaculture, and as Rafter Sass Ferguson’s study shows the work on broad scale is growing. To take these ideas further, we now need to move from the physical and start on the small scale invisible structures: our friends and neighbors. And then our community.

You want to review his online presentation here:

Adam Brock’s Invisible Structure Pattern Language

Take your time to look it over. If you have thoughts on what to the pattern language, leave a comment and help Adam grow this body of knowledge he’s working on.

I think these pattern languages, in the long term, serve as one of the best ways to take the vast body of information we have available as permaculture practitioners, and break them down into something we can carry with us. Though the descriptors that go with each piece of the language may take several paragraphs, or pages, to explain in detail, the title of the pattern is short. You can take all titles from the patterns in Peter Bane’s A Permaculture Handbook, which is excellent by the way, and write them down on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. The same can be said for the edible forest garden pattern language in Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier. Take those two, add in Alexander’s plus Mr. Brock’s, and you have a very powerful reference, that extends the ethics and principles of permaculture. This toolkit allows us to facilitate designing larger, more varied systems, all in a format that fits in a pocket.

Inspirations for Adam’s Pattern Language:
A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander, Sarah Ishikawa, and Murray Silverstein.
Debt the First 5,000 Years by David Graeber
Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
The Empowerment Manual by Starhawk
People and Permaculture by Looby MacNamara
The Permaculture Handbook by Peter Bane
Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein

Resources:
The GrowHaus
Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman

During the conversation we begin talking about what this idea is, and then move into the options available, the ways we can use banking, and financial education, to give someone a hand-up instead of a hand-out, and move into a general conversation of finance and the impact various practices have on both the consumer and society as a whole.

I’ve enjoyed these two interviews with Bill because he’s able to take these ideas, that to me are very heavy material and largely impenetrable from the outside, and demystify them into something very accessible. As permaculture practitioners, we take gardening, horticulture, and biochar, to name a few, and tie them together under the big top of Permaculture, which thankfully have numerous clearly written books available to understand them. But Banking? Finance? I haven’t found anyone who can break those down into easy to understand bits as well as Bill can. And I am greatly appreciative. Plus, as with his involvement in the Permaculture Credit Union, he has the ethical and principle based understanding in common to the more visible structures of permaculture.

Though we have alternative economic options in the permaculture literature with things like Local Exchange Trading System, Bartering, Time Banking, and Local Currency, what gives me hope from this conversation is that here is another way to approach banking and finance a bit differently, in a way that can engage the system that currently exists.

I agree with that idea given to us by Ethan Hughes, and reiterated by Lisa Fernandes and others, that we need meet people where they are at to make permaculture more accessible, and desirable by the public in those areas that aren’t hungry for it yet.

As we get the physical structure designs down, the invisible becomes more important as we build community and permanent culture.

Resources:
The Permaculture Credit Union
CDFI Fund

Here’s my story. How I went from my early days as a young child picking strawberries and spring onions out of my parent’s gardern, finding permaculture and producing this podcast, and looking forward into the future.

I didn’t have permaculture parents. Though my father could, and still can, build many many things out of wood, he never conserved materials, except to save money, or worried about electricity. If the table saw kept running while fetching another piece of lumber, and taking the time to mark it before making the cut, so be it. My mother, an accomplished cook, was as likely to tear open a box to put dinner on the table as cook from scratch. Organic had no meaning either, and the closest notion to a farmer’s market consisted of one roadside, proclaiming “Sweet Corn, $2/dozen” for a few weeks every year.

The only thing we grew were strawberries and spring onions, of which I’d eat both fresh from the garden, dirt still on them. Thinking back to childhood memories, that wide rectangular patch seemed to stretch over a quarter of our urban lot, bigger than any one child could possibly eat all of, and I certainly tried. But seemed is the right word there, as the patch wasn’t all that big. Maybe 100 square feet.

As a child, I spent time in the outdoors, until books, video games, and ultimately computers, caught my interest as a teen. Those teenage years lead to college, where computers continued to play a major role, as I studied Computer Science. I still joke Comp. Sci. is only one part science. The other part is witchcraft, with a lot of prayer and hand waving hoping the results we get back are those we desire.

While in those late teen years, an opportunity arose to intern at a U.S. Military facility. Still before the year 2000, the Y2K bug left a feeling of panic in the air. Great quantities of work waited to fix this problem. No one seemed to know just what would happen if this problem didn’t get fixed. That fear pushed me, prodded me, and took up residence in my mind, so that I became someone involved in disaster preparedness and primitive skills. Should something happen and society did melt down, I’d be ready to step into the temperate hills of Appalachia and be OK.

Thankfully, that fantasy of a young adult quickly left, to be filled with compassion for family and friends, and a desire for a sense of community. I wanted to see everyone make it through any disaster. There had to be a better way to make it through hard times than to go at it alone or build some secure, remote compound. Not long before Y2K, I found permaculture.

The design portion of permaculture didn’t catch my attention, as before my love of computer science, I wanted to study anthropology and sociology, rather here was a system for designing permanent agriculture, to support a permanent culture, and in turn civilization could continue, even in the face of a catastrophe. The piece I’d been looking for came into focus, and the hunt for a Permaculture Design Course was on. At the time, there were not many being offered and my connection to the community, being very very cursory, turned up few chances where time and money aligned to go.

Once Y2K happened, or didn’t as is more accurate, the fear of an unknown future and desire to take up permaculture faded with them. I used the technology boom of the late 90s and early 00s to launch a career and travel down a comfortable road in my 20s, but a sneaking suspicion that something wasn’t quite right with the path continued. Permaculture kept cropping up in my reading and interest. I’d keep looking for a PDC from time to time, but continued to hit the challenge of having either the time or the money to go.

Fast forward a decade. I’m married, in my early 30s, with children. Off and on for 13 years I’ve looked for a PDC. On a whim, I looked again, and found one. It’s being taught about an hour a way. On weekends only. Over 7 months. Finally! A class I can take! Phone calls happen. I talk to one of the teachers, Dillon. The deadline isn’t too far away. I talk to my wife. Back and forth. We straighten things out. I’m finally taking a PDC!

The course went well. I meet a great group of people dedicated to building a better world with permaculture, each in their own way. We graduate, and I start this show, but then some rough time came.

I’ve mentioned before that I encountered several failures to launch before getting to where I am today. That began in late 2010 and early 2011, as I wanted to start my own permaculture design business. Given the place that I’m at, with a family and children, I needed to make sure everything was above board and properly covered, legally. Here’s where I found out, over several months, that to carry the proper insurance and hire a law firm, because of the non-standard nature of permaculture as so considered by the state of Pennsylvania, would be prohibitively expensive for someone starting out. Not too expensive, I don’t think, for an already established business, but getting off the ground this was at the time and insurmountable hurdle.

Shelving the idea of professional design in my current situation, I used the last of my seed money to go to Oregon and take a Teacher Training with Jude Hobbs, Andrew Millison, and Rico Zook. There I realized that technology is a part of who I am, and the podcast was reaching people. Jude went so far as to play a clip while we were eating dinner. She had listened to some shows.

Returning from a great week in the green hills of Oregon, I took nearly a year off to focus on matters important to my family and figure out the next step.

Honestly, returning to the show was a bit of a fluke, but as with so much of what happened on my road to here, the idea of working with this material never left me. One day while sitting down to review website stats for my wife’s site, I decided to check the permaculture podcast and was surprised to see that more people subscribed to the now inactive show than when I first started. The interest was still there. The show came back online with my first new interview speaking to Dillon Cruz, and brought me back to permaculture full time. Well, as full time as my schedule allows. This same event reignited my desire to be a better educator, and improve my ability to communicate these ideas, by going on to graduate school, so that permaculture and sustainability have another credentialed voice, to aid those who work every day to make such great changed in the world.

And so I can help anyone of you who are interested, have a chance to follow your permaculture path wherever it may lead, without having to walk this 15 year long, convoluted road I’ve been on. I don’t know how much time I can save you, but I hope it’s substantial. And, for those of you on this road with me already, realize how long it took me to get here, even with a path that started nearly half my life ago.

From here, where do we go? Well, for me, I’ll continue to work on those credentials and share information about permaculture with the world via the podcast, freely. My desire to keep the show and main website ad and commercial free remain. I depend on donation from listeners to keep things running and make investments in equipment, or to buy skype credits to call internationally. If you’d like to contribute, go to thepermaculturepodcast.com/support to find out how. Also, the show is expanding into an on-line PDC, and I’m putting together the resources to shoot video for release on YouTube.

That’s me. For you, there’s a couple of places to start, depending on where you are and what you want to do.

If you are practicing permaculture in your backyard, you don’t need to take a PDC. There are great books and on-line videos on the subject to get you going, and plenty of evening, one day, and weekend seminars to get you more information. However, if you have the time and money to go to a PDC, I highly recommend it. The camaraderie and connections go a long way towards having people you can bounce ideas off of. In the meantime, always feel free to reach out to me and I’ll do what I can to help you, to certain degrees.

If you want to practice permaculture design professionally, before you go off to a PDC or start down that road, check into what, if any, legal requirements you have in your area, and what the road might be to meet those needs. You may find additional schooling is well served to do this, or that you don’t want to design after all. Otherwise, and once you check that out, get yourself to a PDC! This course is your “gateway” to the world of permaculture. There are more options available now than ever, including several on-line, of which I’ll be opening one up this summer. But that’s not meant as a plug for my work alone. Plenty of talented people work every day to teach permaculture and you’ll be well served by most. If in doubt, send me an email with a listing and I’ll give you an idea of what to consider before making a decision.

If you want to teach this material professionally, once you get a PDC, go to a Teacher Training. This is the next “gateway” on the path. You’ll learn a lot about how to teach effectively in the informal environment, how to run workshops, and many of the other business development pieces you need to be effective. The transparency of my teacher training teachers helped to clear up many questions about permaculture education, and what’s necessary to put yourself out in the world. However, once you have a PDC and Teacher Training under your belt, don’t just jump in with both feet. Take your time, get some more experience, and observe other classes. You’ll save yourself time and energy in the long run.

From there, with your experiences, what you do with permaculture is your choice. Have a Masters in Business Administration and want to do green business consulting with a permaculture focus? Go for it. Have a science background and want to research the efficacy of permaculture techniques in field trials? Go for it? Want to use your communications background to help people express their local needs in a sustainable way? Go for it! Are you a great writer who wants to create the next revision of the Designers’ Manual? Go for it! But only after contacting Tigari to find out what that process would be.

There’s room for many different paths under the permaculture umbrella. Whatever you choose to do, find your niche, where you fit in this big picture, and go for it. Depending on your situation, that may mean a slow climb down on the other side of the precipice, but for others you may be able to leap and build your wings on the way down.

Wherever you go and however you get there, I will be here as long as possible to help you on your journey.

Email: show [at] thepermaculturepodcast [dot] com
Phone: 717.8-two-7.6266

From conversations with some listeners via email, phone, and twitter, I know you’re looking for more in-depth, technical ways to begin realizing a different future with Permaculture. To take designs and thoughts on a page of how to make something and turn it into reality. What Dr. Dorband is doing here, as I’m fond of saying, provides another model for how to do something different, in an effective, productive way.

If you would like to reach out to Dr. Dorband and discuss opening a Green Hacker Space in your area, his contact information is:

E-Mail: waynedorband [at] gmail [dot] com
Phone: 303-4nine5-3705
Websites:
Nourish The Planet
Green Hacker Space
Mountain Sky Group

These are a few of the powerful points made by Allan Savory and his work to holistically manage grazing. Watch the video, hear his powerful message, and then use this new knowledge to make a difference in the world.

When I first heard about J.P. and his company, I was reminded of the conversation with Andrew Faust on the difference NYC could make by processing food waste in the city, rather than shipping it out by the truckload, how that could in turn build healthy soil, and allow more food to be grown in the metropolis. There is so much food and lawn refuse in the United States, and elsewhere, that composting and other related businesses present numerous possibilities to leverage creativity and permaculture design into sustainable solutions in the current market. Where J.P. and Waste Farmers make a difference is in tying the business to a set of values that guide the work each day.

Rather than try and reiterate these ideas in my own works, I’ll read you the Maxfield’s vision statement:

“At Maxfield’s we believe that the hope for worldwide agricultural harmony begins in every backyard. The revolution starts small, and it starts with your own two hands. Establish your roots, work with nature, celebrate the harvest-and cultivate the farmer within.“

The 10 core values that guide the company are:

1. Use passion to fuel change, allow imagination to drive it, and take pride in the vessel.
2. Don’t be afraid to take the contrarian point of view.
3. Believe there is more than less but trust that less is more.
4. Don’t be “right,” seek truth.
5. Strength through diversity, life builds life.
6. Trust your gut, listen, and always ask questions.
7. Civil disobedience through self-reliance.
8. The only productive move is to move forward.
9. Power ceases in the instant of repose.
10. Take time for tea.

Best of all, they’re making this work, so here’s a model of success to consider. Though the world of permaculture design is broad, there’s room for everyone to find their way to make a difference in building a better world, and that’s why I chose to interview him. I’ll join you afterwards with some further thoughts.

Resources
Waste Farmers
Waste Farmers: What We Do & Why
Maxfield’s

Is Sustainability and Oxymoron? by Toby Hemenway. I believe this is the article J.P. refers to during our conversation.

With this as the backdrop, I consider how to prepare for the coming Spring, but also how to use the principles of permaculture to design for locations where the climate is at least this cold or colder. For the sake of this discussion, I’m looking at areas that are in the Continental range of the Koppen Climate classification, and a coldest winter average month that drops below freezing, 32F or 0C. For those of you familiar with Hardiness zones, as initially developed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, this corresponds approximates to a 7a or b.

The strategies for this conversation are:

Build it and they will grow.
Cover up, its cold out there.
Climb the hills. Don’t rest in the valley.
Know your natives.
Read your seed and plant catalog.
Mulch. Mulch. Mulch.

Resources:
Koppen Climate Classification (Wikipedia)
Hardiness Zone (Wikipedia)
Sepp Holzer: Farming with Nature (YouTube)
Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture Institute

I want to liberate food from the coffin that our culture has placed it in. I have an idea for how to start.

My idea in a nutshell: the gamification of massively distributed horticulture, using cell-phones and perennial vegetables.

Even as everything constantly seems so precipitous and headed for disaster, our society at the moment has a number of really useful elements to work with. First, distributed computing and communication platforms. Second, a whole lot of people jonesing (craving) for real change, in the world and in their lives. Third, we can buy anything from anywhere over the Internet. Fourth, we can access more or less the entire knowledge of humanity at will.

This includes horticultural knowledge. Almost everything ever grown for food still exists somewhere, despite the best efforts of agribusiness. Many of these plants are varieties of delicious, transient delicate delicacies like tomatoes and melons that require a certain amount of pampering to thrive. Others, however, are bloody-knuckled fighters in the street brawl for sunlight and nutrients. There’s food out there that it’s actually hard to kill.

In a decorative manicured Victorian garden, this is a problem. To the 3 billion people on earth who live on under $2.50/day, this is abundance manifest. We put our imaginary currency in imaginary institutions and imagine that it “grows,” but when I plant a pound of sunchoke, a year later I have 15 pounds. This is the archetype of abundance.

So what’s the plan? 3 quick steps.

Step 1: Plant aggressive, resilient food in public spaces

Step 2: Map what’s planted where, along with other public forage opportunities, like fruit and nut trees.

Step 3: Develop a smartphone app that lets people know what’s where, helps you recognize what you’re looking at, when it’s ready for harvest, when it needs weeding or fertilizing, and then gives you points for care, for harvest, and for replanting, while letting everyone know who’s doing what. Leaderboards for best weeder, best fertilizer, bonus seeds or starts, the possibilities are endless.

But how does this help those in poverty, who don’t have a cellphone? To get to that point takes an awareness change, for anyone untrained, to start again seeing the world as feeding them. But, it takes the first crucial step: to take our food deserts and start peppering them with tiny food oases. That will grow. The app is aimed at those with a little more leisure, the time to learn and to play, who want to create a more resilient environment. Green-leaning soccer-moms, effectively.

In practice, just this app can turn hopeful urbanites into active permaculturalists, while sequestering resilience, and building abundance to share.

At least hypothetically.

But, practically, the pieces are all there. While we don’t have all the pieces worked out, it’s not beyond the capacity of the technology, the plants, or the people.

If you would like to find out more, you can join the conversation here:
https://plus.google.com/communities/111524883049498937999

I received this track while finishing up a recent episode and figured I’d give a listen while putting together the website notes and resource links. Call that a bad idea on my part. I got drawn in and stopped everything else to listen. Then start the track over and listen again. The music caught my attention first: fun, upbeat, and funky. Next the lyrics. And finally, since I produce audio many hours each week, the quality of the overall production. This is a top notch track that sounds good. The work that went into making this is obvious and I’m thankful to Charlie and crew for making it. I look forward to adding a copy to my toolbox to play for children, and adults, to increase their awareness of permaculture.

Like many projects, and even this podcast, Permaculture: A Rhymer’s Manual happened because of crowdfunding and the help of private individuals through small contributions. Charlie used WeTheTrees.com, Christian Shearer’s organization. I use your support via direct contributions. Find out more by clicking on the support tab of the website.

If you like this track, consider picking up the whole album. The official release date is April 6th, 2013. You can find out more at permaculturesongs.com or by clicking on the link in the show notes. In the meantime, enjoy this single.

His question:

Say, for the sake of argument, that we lived in a fully functional Permacultural society (as to how large a society, let’s consider the question in regards to a local, city, and national sized societies). How would a Permacultural society deal with an extensive drought and/or other longer-termed production destroying situations as opposed to an industrial/agricultural one?

Before I dig in, I’m going to say that this is a thought experiment at best, and a bit of a rambling one at that. Here is my mind as I’m pulling from various angles to look at various points. I could easily spend months working out more and more intricacies, putting in references to support and refute various pieces, but I’d rather provide a basic response than to fall down the rabbit hole of seeking perfection and never produce something. For the sake of time and brevity, this is what I have for now.

Given the complexities of any arrangement of people, a clear-cut answer of what this final society would look like isn’t straight forward. Every situation and site is unique, and thus would be every town, city, or nation that make permaculture the primary design system. However, I can speak to how the principles and other core ideas of permaculture potentially lead to a different society that can face this, or other, loss of production.

To see how that happens, I’m going to walk through Holmgren’s widely publicized 12 principles and be mindful of the three ethics.

For those of you who haven’t heard them in a while, or if this is your first introduction to permaculture, here are those ethics and principles.

Ethics
Care for the Earth
Care for the People
Set limits to consumption and reproduction, and return the surplus.

Principles
Observe and Interact.
Catch and store energy.
Obtain a yield.
Apply self-regulation and accept feedback.
Use and value renewable resources and services.
Produce no waste.
Design from patterns to details.
Integrate rather than segregate.
Use small and slow solutions.
Use and value diversity.
Use edges and value the marginal.
Creatively use and respond to change.

So, we have the premise of the question: A disaster occurs destroying long term production. Though it could be anything, I’ll focus on Tony’s suggested drought as an illustrating point. The principles, being principles and not techniques, apply in the same way to any other problem encountered, even if that’s a wandering horde of zombies or keeping rebels out of your new planet destroying orbital base. The specific design elements and techniques come in to solve the problem at hand, such as a strong fence to keep out those zombies, if they’re the slow shambling Romero types, or insuring you have good security in place and small enough exhaust ports so some lucky farmboy doesn’t have the skills to hit that now half meter target. Though I don’t know how you’d account for the wisdom of a ghostly Obi-Wan Kenobi encouraging him to use the force, but I digress.

Now then, with the 12 principles as a guide for figuring out how this society would differ from the world we have today, let’s go.

Observe and interact.
This principle gets us into the world examining the site and what happens there. Through the use of zone, sector, and vector analysis the internal, external, positive, and negative influences become clear, including accepting the unknowns.

We know what disasters are most likely, can plan for the eventuality, and consider the worst case scenario. We then design solutions into the system expecting that one day the disaster will come. Knowing there is a drought guides how we respond to it.

Catch and store energy.
Another reminder to capture and use as much of what’s coming through a particular system as possible in order to slow the progress of entropy. Living systems represent the best way to do that, through the plants and animals, people and their knowledge.

Considering the impacts of a drought: long term drop in food production, we need to store food, our own energy for the future. When it comes to our plants, that means building nutrients in the soil and in turn water the soil.

Knowledge is another form of energy storage, if you want to play loose with the idea of energy, but figure this more to be the wisdom of those around us and who came before us. Planning for drought, we can investigate techniques to help in that situation both common, such as mulching, but also more specifically like dry farming tomatoes. Again, with any emergency, the best time to gain those skills are before the problem arises, so we’re constantly learning new things early and often.

Obtain a yield.
Whether the disaster occurs today or 10 years from now, preparing ahead of time and considering what yields we want to obtain allow us to still produce something useful from the system.

It’s possible to spend so much preparing for an eventuality that in the time until it occurs the systems costs us more than we gain. This shouldn’t be a zero-sum game where we win or lose, but rather to be perpetually gaining a little bit more and ever improving. But don’t take that as a commandment to seek ever increasing growth, as the only thing I’ve known of that can grow forever is cancer, and that’ll kill you. Instead, we expand the yields we get from the system.

Storing water in tanks is a great improvement if it benefits us now and in the future. Capturing rainwater to water plants may aid the recharging of the local aquifer because of the decreased need to use it, allowing that to be an additional resource when the drought comes. Storing food saves us should the drought mean there is less food, but spending money we one doesn’t have to build those reserves could put you in more dire straights. The same goes for spending resources to put away food and then failing to use it. We’ve introduced unnecessary waste to the system.

Apply self-regulation and accept feedback.
Like a recession, by the time we realize a drought is upon us, we’re already in trouble. This isn’t something that happens suddenly and is gone, like a tornado or single storm, but is a long term disruption that may happen over a large area. As long term planners, after a few weeks with no rain, we being making decisions on how to handle the situation. The community begins coming together to figure out how to get the necessary work done. The nation begins directing any available volunteers where they can do the most good, while under the auspices of the local community leaders and citizens they serve.

Use and value renewable resources and services.
We use renewable resources and services because they’re ones that can be managed easier, by individuals and communities. Though the usage could be extractive, say cutting down a tree, planting another one or allowing succession regenerates that loss so it is only temporary.

In turn, this preserves the limited, scarce, and non-renewable resources so that should a problem arise, a small portion may be used to help solve the problem. For our drought conditions, this could be fuel for tanker trucks to deliver water onsite to those in need, or to move resources long distances should the local ones reach critically low stores.

Produce no waste.
For produce no waste, the 5 Rs come to mind: Refuse, Reuse, Reduce, Repair, Recycle, which all tie into the third ethic to reduce consumption and have a surplus to share. For our drought, that means concentrating on what matters most in the landscape and community to move forward and overcome the issues at hand, to refuse to produce any waste, to reuse as much as possible in light of the current problem, reduce the use of water to preserve for the landscape, possibly by asking people to work together to restrict water use to divert that water from other uses into the landscape.

Similarly, there’s no reason to grow food that the individual or community won’t eat. My wife loves cherry tomatoes, but is the only member of our family who does. One cherry tomato plant is enough for our family. Growing ten doesn’t make sense, even if there’s more than that have currently escaped into the yard.

Design from patterns to details.
Patterns help focus our planning, not only in the assemblage of parts, but also in what can happen. Think about a garden you’ve raised, or what you hear in the news about agriculture, if there’s a long dry spell, what are the first plants to begin drooping, wilt, and then die? How would that influence what you grow?

In the community, you can also find out, through those acts of observation and being involved, who the leaders are, whether they think they’re in charge or not. Ever notice how there’s someone who people defer to when making certain decisions? Or who step up and volunteer when something needs to be done? They become leverage points to turn to when problems arise and also the jesus screws you need to keep tight when they’re called upon. Within my own family, those people are my father on his side of the family, and my maternal grandmother on my mother’s.

Who can you identify in your own location or family should the wheels come off the system to call on to make a difference?

Integrate rather than segregate.
Bring things together, be they the plants and animals in a yard backyard, or the members of a community community. Whether you think individuals are dumb and groups are smart or groups are dumb and individuals are smart, bringing everyone together lends additional intellectual, social, and other yields that help solve problems. Though your neighbor may not be strong enough to lug water down the road to the horticulturist, they may have a wheelbarrow you can borrow to get their water there. Or an old farmer may remember how they made it through a drought years before, aiding your position.

Use small and slow solutions.
As the drought becomes apparent, rather than making huge drastic changes, we begin with little ones, looking for those leverage points where the smallest action produces the most good. Again, this will vary depending on scale. The home user may decide to eat through some stored foods that don’t require water to cook so they can continue watering. A large producer may make that choice to abandon one or two crops, but not whole sections of field. As time passes and the conditions continue, the choices made adapt to the situation incrementally. The line “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” comes to mind, because if we completely abandon something for a week and the rains come, then the solution could be worse than the problem.

Use and value diversity.
Permaculture abhors monocultures as much as nature. Using a diversity of plants, animals, and people, keeps the system from having a single point of failure. Even though a few parts may not make it, others may thrive, and the overall system survives.

Use edges and value the marginal.
Permaculture systems allow for more diversity and ways to integrate the pieces together by looking for the little places to make and use change. Everyone and everything within the system contributes something, it’s up to our imagination and observation to find it, to look where others might not, and then to make use of it. Not in an extractive way, but in a functional, regenerative one.

Creatively use and respond to change.
With this idea, we can engage the artist and the creator rather than the engineer and logician, to move this problem from something negative and life defeating to something positive and abundant.

As a drought occurs and deepens, we can use the drier conditions to our advantage. As certain previous plants die off, their passing creates new space for others, which could include bringing in plants with low water requirements or work in poor compacted soils, so we again build for the long term. Techniques that seemed unnecessary in a world without a drought get tried and tested, be those a changes in mulching, something like zai where we plant in the bottom of a shallow hole, or smoothing out the soil surface and direct it so that dew gets caught and directed towards plants on now barren spaces.

We could use this as an opportunity to bring together our community with more meals cooked and eaten collectively within a neighborhood to reduce the amount of water used, and to use an economy of scale to cook food for many.

And that’s just a shotgun approach to looking at a drought and how these different principles allow us to prepare and respond to the disaster. Hold onto those for a few minutes, as I want to walk through a quick rundown of the agricultural/industrial model.

The agriculture/industrial model that currently exists suffers from a few problems in regards to responding to something a disaster like a drought. One is the reliance on machines, some of which have limited applications for what they can and cannot plant or harvest. Needing to retool a farm because of ongoing crop failures is an expensive prospect. Now multiply that over many many farms and the impact on food prices and stability. Heck, look at the exploration of corn based ethanol in the United States and impact on world food prices. I recently read an article discussing whether or not it’s worthwhile to subsidize and produce ethanol to add to gasoline given the recent impact of drought on food production in the US this year. Ending that usage may keep food prices down, but what about next year, or the year after, or the year after, if changes aren’t made now.

Which leads to another issue: short term thinking. Market forces and the demands placed on farmers, as I understand things, limits how far out someone can plan. Also a demand for financial profit, especially among multinational corporations that require a profit to satisfy shareholders, produces short term gains at the potential expense of the long term. The head of a company may have the best intent for implementing a 30 or 50 year vision, but when they need to go before a board once a year or quarter and talk about losses as part of a long term plan, unless everyone involved including those investors, are on board, what’s the likelihood that leader keeps their job?

Another short term issue that comes to mind is a reliance on extractive and functionally non-renewable resources. Initially the drought may not appear that bad to the farmers in the current model because they can turn on well pumps and pull water from the aquifer to irrigate fields. But if the recharge rate of the aquifer is lower than the irrigation rate, the ground water can become depleted. This also occurs in areas with high water tables and shallow wells. The these areas may be to sink a deeper well, but this further exacerbates the issues for others.

If you wonder why water rights are such an issue in some areas, and conversations about future resources conflicts could revolve around water, imagine a world where someone doesn’t have water to irrigate crops or an inability to access fresh clean drinking water. However, methods exist for reducing this problem.

The agriculture/industrial model by itself, doesn’t do much to build topsoil. Drive by a field at the end of harvest and look at the stubble sticking up and all that bare ground exposed to the elements. A hard late summer rain turning the runoff first clear, then tan, then brown, and finally almost black as erosion carries away the stuff food grows in. Importing fertilizers can help feed plants as fertility is lost, but what happens when there’s nothing to grow in? Look at images of the dust bowl for an idea of how bad things could get in the long term.

Short term thinking leads to management issues for how we use and value resources. Markets, as I understand them and recognize that my viewpoint is limited, work largely around the economic role of resources and financial capital. Without being able to assign a fair financial value to resources, or failing to assign a value at all, exacerbates management of limited resources.

As I study Natural Resources Law and policy, I’m beginning to see the broad view and why we run into so many issues between industry, economists, conservationists, and activists in the current model of agriculture and industry. The resource section below includes additional links for related topics of interest.

So, those are just a few of the problems I see within the current model. Within the bounds that it exists, it works more or less. Billions of people get fed off this system and the response to issues work because of the resources available to do so. However, my biggest concern as it relates to Tony’s question, is whether or not there’s sustainability in the long term if any of the pieces required for this to work goes away. Which is what leads me to the permacultured society.

Let’s take those bits and pieces from the principles and tie them all together with a more complete vision of what this society looks like and why permaculture in this case leads to people less impacted by the problem.

I think that a permacultured society ultimately leads us towards, to borrow the term from Chuck Marsh, a neo-horticultural revival which creates resiliency and regeneration as the underpinnings of society. To make that happen, a shift needs to occur where more people produce food on a local scale. Figures I’ve seen and calculated on my own comes to a minimum of 10 percent of a society’s population, would need to be producing food via horticulture. Whether on their own property or their neighbors, space needs to be opened up to allow tending where we are, not far away.

Because we focus on the local, and generating a yield and a surplus, we take care of those located close to use spatially, reducing the need from someone else far away to do the same. However, should the conditions allow it, we can transfer some of those resources to a place that needs eat. For the drought, that’s food to feed the hungry. But, if we’re in an OK place, we can move that food to where it needs to go. The focus on local and renewable saves the use of non-renewable resources so that we can use them when appropriate, reducing the feeling they are scarce, and allowing for the feeling of abundance from what we have ready access to.

Governance, in my mind, would also be largely on a local scale to make decisions meaningful for the people in a given community. Just as the needs of someone in one country and with one culture may not meet the needs of someone halfway across the world, the same goes from state to state and city to city, or town to city, or nation to city, and all permutations. However, because of a focus on cooperation, the usefulness of a state or nation doesn’t go away. The ability to coordinate on a large scale and shift and move resources around on a large scale is useful, but it could be considerably smaller if the communities involved aided and worked with one another while keeping what they have. Which re-localizes economies and lessens the impact of larger scale disasters from occurring, but if they do, there’s the will and direction to work through and move forward. When larger scale help arrives they should, to borrow from Ethan Hughes, meet the community where they are and work together, not assume control of the situation.

So, bringing that to the issue of a long term drought, here’s my permaculture society narrative. As the drought begins because of water conservation techniques, soil building, integrative pest management, and other permaculture standards, the food system is already resilient to many basic problems. A mild drought may elicit no change to practices at all or any noticeable impact. But, as the the lack of rain begins to take a toll, the individuals tending to the horticultural plots see what plants are starting to fail and which ones thrive. They speak with their colleagues, the other growers, to see what’s working where and what’s not to begin sorting out solutions in their own space and helping those around them save what they can. This early stage also begins the communication process to other communities to find out the extent of the issue and begin seeing where there the drought is localized and who is, no pun intended, weathering this the best.

As that information comes together and begins to worsen, the information is passed to community leaders who can help put together broader scale plans to help the growers get food to market. The community can be informed and keep fear from growing by being honest and informed about what is and isn’t happening, as well as how everyone can help work the plan.

From there, as shortages do arise and become long term, different communities can see about shifting members to other areas nearby where there’s more success to help increase food production, or to move resources from one area to another on an on-needed basis.

This interconnectivity of the permaculture designed system to inter-operate on many different levels plays a key role in allowing for the resiliency that permeates a design stemming from the principles of design.

But, all this is fun to put together because it’s predicated by removing the hard part: I didn’t have to work out how we get to a permaculture oriented society. That seems to be the big question. I got to assume that it already exists. As of yet, I don’t have an answer to that idea, but I do have ideas bubbling up from underneath. Once they mature, I’m sure to share them.

In the meantime, do you think that permaculture could lead to a more resilient and regenerative society? Do you have any insight into things I missed you feel are important to the conversation? Let me know.

Leave a comment in the show notes.
Email me: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Call me: 717.827.six-two-six-six.

Resources:
Redefining Civilization with Toby Hemenway (YouTube Video)
Ogallala Aquifer (Wiki)
Water Losses in the Middle East (ABC News)
NASA Information on Middle East Water Losses
The Tragedy of the Commons A copy of the original Garrett Hardin article that started this conversation.
Common Pool Resources with Elinor Ostrom (YouTube Video)
Externality (Wiki)
Extractive Resource Definition
Non-renewable Resources (Wiki)
Precautionary Principle (Wiki)
The Precautionary Principle (YouTube Video with Caroline Raffensperger. Bioneers)
Sustainable Use (European Commission)

2013 Schedule and Newsletter

2013 is an exciting year for us at Itinerant Permaculture, as we have a schedule which is packed full. In addition to running courses and workshops, 2013 is bringing us exciting possibilities for exciting large scale design work and consultations. In addition to that, we are working on bringing Itinerant Permaculture to you by creating a more user friendly website and informational hub, and creating a context for sharing the vision, ethics, and principals to all would be Itinerant Permaculturalists around the globe. Attached is a short list of some of what we are up to this year. Please keep an eye on our Website and Facebook to get up to date information about our whereabouts and offerings.

Feb 24th to March 12th Permaculture Design Course, Jiwa Damai, Bali, Indonesia
Co-Instructors: Jeremiah Kidd, www.sipermaculture.com
Location: Jiwa damai is a beautiful, tranquil permaculture retreat center located on 4 Hectares.
price: $950 Course fees includes a shared room (3/room) at Jiwa Dimai retreat center, 3 meals per day, optional morning yoga, and optional morning meditation.
links and web sites: www.jiwadamai.net
contact: Margret: Info@jiwadamai.net

May (4 weekends): Weekend Permaculture Workshops, Darjeeling, India
Water, Soil, Growing food in Urban Landscapes, Appropriate Technology,
Price: To be Announced Shortly: discount for taking whole series.
Location: Mineral Springs, Darjeeling, West Bengal, India
Website: www.darjeelingprerna.org
Contact: dlrprerna@yahoo.com, darjeelingprerna@gmail.com,
Phone: 91 354 2255894

June 3rd to 10th Food Production In Small Spaces, Chandigarh, Punjab, India
A training for Indian women who reside in slums

June 16th to 27th Introduction to Permaculture, Bangalore, India
Price: Indian national 15000rs, International: $400usd
Location: Navadarshanam Community
Website: www.navadarshanam.org/
Contact: gopi sankarasubramani gsankara@gmail.com

July 4th to 7th Creating our Independence and strengthening our Interdependence
Permaculture Festival and workshops, Taos, New Mexico, USA
Price: To be Announced Shortly
Location: San Cristobal, near Taos NM
Co-Instructors: Jeremiah Kidd , Jerry Schwartz, Local guests
Contact: rico@i-permaculture.org

Nov 7th to 21st 10th annual Permaculture Design Course, Darjeeling India
Indias longest running permaculture design course
Price: International 23000rs, Indian 17000rs, Locals 11000rs,
Location: Mineral Springs, Darjeeling, West Bengal, India
Website: www.darjeelingprerna.org
Phone: +91 354 2255894
Contact: dlrprerna@yahoo.com, darjeelingprerna@gmail.com

Nov 24th to December 6th International Permaculture Convergence, Havana Cuba
Rico will be attending and presenting at the IPC 2013.

We already have our eye out for 2014 which might be bringing us to Laos, and The Palestinian Territories early in the year for PDC offerings. Keep checking back if these might interest you. If you are interested in Hosting a course with us please visit our website for more information. If you would like to offer any support, particularly in the form of website design or coding, please email permyfany@gmail.com,and tell us your skills and how you would like to help. We look forward to seeing you in our path, and to those who we don’t, have a great year and Get Growing!!

Wherever you are is the place to start learning and working with Permaculture. If you are on the road or living where you were born all that is offered here is applicable. If your trip is for a week or a year you will find things here that will assist you. Itinerant Permaculture is what happens from spontaneous meetings, from paths crossing by chance, from volunteering to assist on a farm or in a community. Permaculture is the toolbox you carry with you while traveling. It is the way you view and understand the road and the world. It is an aspect of all that you do, from digging a hole to building a community. It need not be explicit, and really should only be so if the situation encourages it. The point is that to create a sustainable human culture we need to infuse sustainability in all that we do moment to moment, whether on the road or at home. The following courses will assist you in creating your own bit of sustainability and help us all create a more sustainable world

RICO ZOOK: PERMACULTURE DESIGNER, CONSULTANT AND TEACHER
www.i-permaculture.org and www.facebook.com/itinerant.permaculture

Though I’d heard about the Permaculture Credit Union before, I didn’t get around to looking into it further until Wes Roe, one of the board members of PCU, contacted me with the suggestion of talking to Bill. In setting up the interview, I spoke with Bill at length, and felt his background offered a unique perspective to discuss banking and financial permaculture; he’s been involved in finance and business for over 30 years including holding a Master of Business Administration degree from Loyola College. Here is a banker who also practices permaculture. This interview adds another model to those presented by Eric Toensmeier and Lisa Fernandes on applying permaculture more broadly, particularly to business.

We begin with Bill’s background in the world of banking and finance, and how he came to permaculture. From there we move to the Permaculture Credit Union: how the organization began, the process involved to get started, and the ethos that allows people to join the credit union and also bind them together philosophically. Throughout it all, Bill speaks with clarity and frankness as I seek details on understanding the causes of the financial crisis/melt down/great recession over the last few years, and how the Permaculture Credit Union performed in comparison to the big banks. We throw some numbers around and touch on esoteric ideas behind what makes a particular financial institution secure or insecure. We close out talking about how community focused banks can make a difference to the people that live within there, even if the bank is located hundreds, or thousands, of miles away. In the information age physical location may matter less and less, but the we should ally with those who agree that the best place to start building a better world is at home, in our neighborhood, and our nearest town or city.

Resources:
Permaculture Credit Union
8 Forms of Capital

We begin by talking about the Eat Local Foods Coalition which leads to talking about Community Supported Fisheries (CSF), a sea-food based analogue to Community Supported Agriculture, where consumers directly support producers. A question I pose about the sustainability of these systems leads us down the road of considering water quality when we design for the land, the evolving nature of permaculture education, and the need for a mindset of abundance. Though the food system and abundance conversations exist across a gulf of this episode, the way they tie together resulted in the title of this episode.

Eric Toensmeier mentioned Lisa in a previous episode which lead me to want to talk to her. I’m thankful I did. Lisa comes through in a clear voice that articulates her connections to this material, and her points, concisely, as opposed to my own rambling meanderings.

Resources:
Lisa M. Fernandes
Resilience Hub
Portland Maine Permaculture

Fisheries:
Ted Ames
Gulf of Maine Research Institute
Northwest Atlantic Marine Alliance
Penobscot East Resource Center

Food Systems:
Russell Libby
Eat Local Foods Coalition
Food Solutions New England
The Maine Food Strategy
Northeast Permaculture Region
Northeast Sustainable Agriculture Working Group

I want to offer something more than just the PDC that represents a solid value in your education down this road of regenerative design. By the course end I want you to feel comfortable with the material, like a natural part of your thought process. For you to have a well developed portfolio, or property, to point to when someone asks what work you’ve done. That you’ll have mistakes to use as teaching moments. To know about local resources and hurdles. To be an expert in your own local area when someone has a question. For you to add to the permaculture community and be respected in your own right.

Does this sound like something you’d be interested in?

I’m looking to open up registration for the first class in the middle of May, with the first packet being mailed out July 1, 2013. I’m considering a sliding scale range of $75-125/month, or $900-1500 over the year for the entire course, with the possibility of work study as partial or full payment.

Listen to the episode and get an understanding of what this course will entail and then contact me if you’re in or have any further questions, so I can keep you informed along the way. Or, if you don’t like what I have to offer and would like a shorter, more traditional PDC, I can point you to some folks doing that right now.

Email: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Call: 717-82-Seven-6-two-66.

We discuss his book from the context of how he got involved with writing the book, working with a publisher, and the process of why and what got included in the final product. We also talk about his role as a teacher at Merritt Community College, where he’s taught for 11 years, graduating around 700 PDC students in that time, the way he approaches the class as a hands-on endeavor, serving as another model for teaching Permaculture, and the permutations and changes coming as Permaculture continues to mature.

My wife introduced me to Christopher and his work when a group she’s a part of received a list of upcoming books. Doing some research Christopher clearly came from a place of knowledge and experience with Permaculture, so the book sounded interesting, coming from someone so steeped in the design and practice. That caused me to reach out to Christopher for an interview as well as his publisher about an advance copy of the book to read in preparation. Even though my copy was an uncorrected proof, the material stood out solidly and I liked it.

If you would like to learn more about Christopher, you can find him at his personal website: wildheartgardens.com, or at the Merritt College Landscape Horticulture website: merrittlandhort.com, or at Timber Press, where you can pick up a copy of the book, timberpress.com.

Resources:
Wildheart Gardens Christopher’s Website
Merritt College Landscape Horticulture
Timber Press Christopher’s Publisher. Links directly to his book.

Bay Area Seed Interchange Library (B.A.S.I.L.)
Detroit Summer Program
Linnaea Farm Where Christopher studied Permaculture.

If we place some of the permaculture books already on the market on a scale of 1 to 10 for readability and as an introduction to permaculture, starting with the heavy’s on the upper end of the scale: Mollison’s Designers’ Manual at 10 and Holmgren’s Permaculture: Principles and Pathways at 7. In the middle to lower end I’d lump in Hemenway’s Gaia’s Garden at, say, 5, and Peter Bane’s The Permaculture Handbook at 3. That leaves The Vegetable Gardener’s Guide to Permaculture firmly at a 1.

That’s the place we need a book on permaculture, and this book fits that need perfectly. This isn’t for the professional designer, or even someone who read some of the other titles mentioned. This book is to give to the masses, and start their way down the road of ecological design. The book to have on hand when talking before garden clubs or civic groups. Or, for me to give to my father when he asks me, again, what it is I do with my life.

Why do I say that? This is a gorgeous book with plenty of pictures I’d leave on my coffee table with a blend of gardening and design ideas throughout, including simple take away projects someone can try, that aren’t intimidating, expensive, or time consuming. There are lists of what to plants that includes plants I’d dare to say most folks have heard of and the ways to adapt them, and the other information, to different climates. The overview of design that lacks jargon or other inaccessible language, all while still keeping permaculture at the core. Through it all, Christopher’s personal story and journey are woven as a narrative that allow the reader to relate to him and his place in the world by removing the technical and including the human. From my interview with Christopher, a lot of work went into getting those results, but it’s an overwhelming success, and a worthy addition to a beginner’s library.

If this is your first exposure to Permaculture: buy this book.

If you know permaculture and want a way to share it with someone else, or you’ve read some of the other permaculture titles and shake your head going “huh, I don’t get it”, pick up a copy. It’s the right place for them, or you, to start.

I wanted to talk to Erin because she’s a friend of mine and I knew we could have a candid conversation about the process of transitioning to farming in a realistic, on the ground, way without romanticizing the experience or implying this is an easy path for everyone. That candor comes through when we cover how much land she farms, yields, and farming income, further personalizing by including the restrictions she set for herself in approaching farming on her own terms. There are lessons here for all of us inside and outside the lens of permaculture when we look at producing food, and the decisions we need to make.

Resources:
The Kale Yard

The Organic Farmer’s Business Handbook (Chelsea Green Publishing)

Contact the Show:
Email: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Phone: 717-eight-two-seven-6266

When I first became aware of The GrowHaus and traded email with Adam to setup the interview, my biggest question arose about how the people and organization worked on objectives of the goal “…to provide healthy, affordable food for the surrounding community and raise awareness about issues of food justice and sustainability.” The answers surprised me. As often happens I’m left speechless for a little bit, but thankfully can edit that out. You do, however, hear some of my joy for their work and the process.

Another area that really stood out was in the conversation of social justice. I find when the word justice is attached to a term describing a movement towards equality, or a level playing field, the rhetoric can turn heated, or the phrase used to allow someone opposed to the idea to dismiss the advocate and their argument. But you should listen to what Adam says and the way that The GrowHaus works to provide a hand-up through personal engagement and responsibility, rather than a hand-out. Just as Adam and his colleagues grow food to physically nourish the members of the community, they also nurture the financial growth of those people.

But, you should listen to the interview to hear the rest of that.

Resources
The GrowHaus

Contact the Show
show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
717.8-two-7.6266

Andrew co-taught my advanced permaculture design certificiate teacher training, along with Jude Hobbs and Rico Zook, so I went into this interview with a familiarity with his work and style. In addition to teaching, he continues to design and consult on permaculture installations of all types and sizes, and also works on documenting permaculture projects. There are two videos you should check out, one with Tom Ward and another with Don Tipping. You can find out more about Andrew at beaverstatepermaculture.com.

Someone else to know about in the Permaculture community is Andrew’s colleague Marisha Auerbach, who currently teaches an online course with him. If you find that his schedule is too busy, or you’d like another voice from the Pacific Northwest, check out her work and you’ll be in good hands.

Resources
Beaver State Permaculture
Marisha Auerbach
Barnabus Kane
Brad Lancaster
Tim Murphy
Gary Nabhan
Barbara Rose
Oregon State University Permaculture (4 College Credits)
Oregon State University Permaculture (Non-Credit)

Arcosanti
Ecosa Institute
Prescott College

Caduceus Cellars (Maynard James Keenan’s Winery)

Before getting to the student side of things, a question to the other permaculture teachers who listen to the program, as I know at least a few of you do: how would you model the online experience to meet the 72-hours of instruction, as set forth by Mollison, and considered the bare minimum standard for a PDC?

Since I mentioned wanting to put together an online PDC a few months ago, I’ve mulled over the idea of what an online PDC would look like. After putting together the show on “What to look for when looking for a PDC”, I feel I can more than deliver on the requirements outlined in that material. You know who I am, who my teachers are, their teachers, and know my understanding of permaculture curriculum in every conversation with a guest or through the topical episodes assembled from my own notes.

Based on messages received after announcing the possibility of an online PDC, the core thread of desire was about having the depth of knowledge necessary to lead to a design certificate, and that the certificate is accepted by the Permaculture community. Given my teachers, the variety of people in the community who know me, and the very public format of this website and podcast, a PDC certificate from me, Scott Mann, won’t be a problem.

Now then, for the listeners who are students of permaculture, what would you want the class to look like? Before trying to answer that kind of a big, broad question, here’s what I mean: I’ve taken several online classes and talked to friends who have as well. That pool of experiences leads to some overarching examples. In some cases, the online classes were large seminars with minimal access to the instructor, and the bulk of the course work was self-directed based on a syllabus that included all activities for the semester with what chapters to read and assignment due dates. You know, read this book, do this homework, take this test, wash, lather, and repeat until you’re done. Other classes were previous recorded lectures the students watched or listened to, and then posted to a discussion forum, with homework, and 2-3 exams. One class I took consisted of a series of small assignments that built towards a final project, with instructor feedback provided on each piece building towards the final whole.

With those kinds of thoughts in mind, I come to the following questions to fill out the discussion.

How would you want to cover the PDC material? Video lectures you can watch online? A series of PDC oriented in-depth audio to download and listen to on the go? Or would you rather read the necessary material? There’s definitely reading involved however we do this, but what portion of the course would you want covered in text?

Do you want to be graded on the material? To receive scores like you might in school to determine where your work is at and where you can improve. Or would non-scored written and/or verbal feedback on assignments be enough?

How much access would you want to the instrutor? What’s your preferred method of contact? Email? Phone? Online forum? Should I have regular office hours to call and discuss questions as they arise?

Do you want a “classical” selection of Permaculture Design Course material, as outlined in Permaculture: A Designers’ Manual? Or something up-to-date and relevant to the skills, techniques, and information available now?

I know that’s a rapid fire succession of questions coming from me, but however you found this show, you continue to listen because there’s something of value in what I do. I want to honor that value by providing a course you want to take. If the majority of the feedback presents a desire for something outside my ability to properly deliver I won’t try to put together a PDC. If, however, there is a way to make it work, then we’ll have something this year.

One piece of feedback I received during the first round of conversation is that some listeners don’t want to have to sit in front of a computer all the time to cover the material, which I can understand completely. That leads me to two paths in the road, both of which I feel can be addressed, but require different ways to make it happen.

Option 1, for those who are comfortable with more time at a computer, is to do the on-line course in a way where students can meet and interact with one another and myself, and to post projects on-line as both a proof of work and for further discussion. We get more of a teacher in the classroom experience.

Option 2, to reduce the time spent on-line, is to make the interaction more of a mentor and student relationship that relies more heavily on a project based curriculum with regular one-on-one homework, and ongoing contact between myself and the student to provide feedback via email and phone calls.

Anyway, those are my thoughts right now as I chew through the details. I’d love to hear your ideas. Begin by choosing which course you’d rather participate in, 1 – a digital classroom, 2 – mentor lead learning, and leave a note in the comments for this show, or you know the usual ways to contact me:

show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com

717.827.6266.

Until the next time, take care of the earth, your self, and each other.

So let’s begin the conversation now, as I prepare to take PREE 680: Environmental Education. Below is the required preperatory reading for the course. If you’ve already read them, leave a comment with your thoughts. Otherwise pick them up, absorb the information, and let’s talk about how to use this new knowledge to inform permaculture.

Required Reading List
Earth in Mind: On Education, Environment, and the Human Prospect. by David Orr
Ecological Education in Action: On Weaving Education, Culture, and the Environment. edited by Gregory A. Smith and Dilafruz R. Williams
Beyond Ecophobia: Reclaiming the Heart in Nature Education. by David Sobel
Place-Based Education: Connecting Classrooms and Communities. by David Sobel
Ecological Literacy: Educating Our Children for a Sustainable World. edited by Michael K. Stone, Barnes, and Zenobia.

Recommended Resource:
Ecological Literacy. by David Orr

Perspective Reading (Pick One):
Last Child in the Woods: Saving our Children from Nature Deficit Disorder by Richard Louv
Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

If you’ve read both of these, then read My Ishamel by Daniel Quinn. If you’ve read all three, pick one to re-read.

If you recently began listening these shows represent a broad overview of the guests interviewed and topics covered at The Permaculture Podcast. If you wanted a place to “start here” these episodes provide a perspective from the beginning, and show where we will go together in the future.

The Permaculture Handbook: An Interview with Peter Bane
Radical Possibilities with Ethan Hughes
Nutrient Dense Foods with Dan Kittredge
Carbon Farming: Soils with Connor Stedman
Eric Toensmeier on Perennials, Broadscale Permaculture, and Food Forests

If you’d like to learn more about Rafter and his work, first listen to this interview as an introduction and then delve in deep by visiting his website at LiberationEcology.org.

Do you know someone farming with permaculture? Are you someone who is farming with permaculture? I’d love to hear about your work and experiences of applying this system of regenerative design to your efforts.

Leave a comment below or:

E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast [dot] com
Voicemail: 717.8-two-7.6266

Resources:
Liberation Ecology
The #SciFund Challenge

Scott McCloud and Understanding Comics

I say unequivocally: 2012 was a great year. After relaunching in mid-June, the show grew beyond my expectations. At that beginning 300 of you tuned in regularly to find out the happenings in the world of Permaculture. By the end of the year, conservatively, since figuring out the number of people who hear a podcast is a bit tricky, over 1,100 of you join for any given show, a number that grows with every new episode. If nothing changes, and you and I keep doing what we do, me producing shows and you sharing with like-minded folks, in 2013 the show is on track to top 3,000 listeners. 18 months from 300 to 3000. A 10-fold increase. Amazing!

This couldn’t happen without your support, which allowed the show to keep going in a meaningful way, including the award of a scholarship to a permaculture presentation, and to perform several minor technology upgrades, with more of both planned in the upcoming year. Though I still search for where to give more scholarships, I did narrow the field on the next technology upgrade, now I finished building the desktop computer for editing the show that includes a monitor large enough to ease my aging eyes, comes in the form of a new microphone.

If you can assist with that project in particular, or the show in general, go to The Permaculture Podcast and click on the Support tab to make a donation. While there you’ll find you can make a one-time contribution or, at the request of a listener, sign up for the recurring monthly option. Either way, great good comes from your generosity and I deeply appreciate any way you choose to help.

In addition to that change expect several more from this show forward. First: news, updates, and other information no longer get separated into standalone monthly episodes. Seminars, classes, courses, and similar pieces in the future get posted to the website, not included in the podcasts, with other notes added to the intro or ending of an interview or topical show, with a quick note reminding everyone about new website content.

Another change coming to the show stems from my going back to school. A few short weeks from now I enter a program for a Masters of Science in Parks, Resources, and Environmental Education, the non-M.Ed version of an M.Ed. in Environmental Education. After considerable soul searching, and my ongoing desire to take permaculture further within the credentialed society in the United States, returning to school for an advanced degree became the best option forward. Not everyone needs to walk down the road of more education, considering the great work so many of you already do, but some of people need to possess the alphabet soup after our names to take the next step, push the boundaries, and continue to grow permaculture as a whole.

Thankfully, after several discussions with my advisor and looking over my schedule, both school and personal, nothing negative happens to the show; only positive. The quantity of shows stays the same, 6-8 a month while I work towards the ideal of 2 per week without interruption. The quality improves from what I learn in class and more high quality non-podcast material gets posted to the website. Win-win for all of us.

Another change comes from additional content. Streamlining my production process over the past few months, which felt like blind luck though others might kindly call gaining experience, frees up time not only for school but also to read and, especially, write more about the myriad of topics available in the world of regenerative design.

Possible Topics and Guests

The link above contains my current catalog of potential standalone show content, as well as people and organization to speak with and their areas of specialization. Though by no means exhaustive, take a few minutes to download and review the contents. If any of ideas or people listed stick out for me to write about or contact sooner rather than later, please let me know. Also, if you see a glaring hole that needs filled, someone or something for me to cover, or, if you prefer for a past guest to return and expand on what they already shared, I want to hear from you.

That takes a look at the past of 2012 and into the future of 2013, what about right now? At the moment the upcoming guest list includes Rafter Sass-Ferguson and his work on documenting self-identified permaculture projects about the United States. Christopher Shein and I, after missing each other due to the holidays, sit down to talk about his forthcoming book, The Vegetable Gardeners Guide to Permaculture. My friend Erin Harvey join me later in the month to talk about her experiences as a beginning farmer. And Dan Kittredge returns to further the conversation on rock dusts and nutrient dense farming. Plus, put another half-dozen or so people in the process of setting up interviews.

So much good ahead for all of us. If I can help you on your permaculture path in any way, give me a call: 717.827.6266 or send me an email: 717.827.6266.

Until the next time, take care of the Earth, your self, and each other.

When registering for this course, use the code ET88 to receive an $80 discount. The earlier you register, the lower the cost: Sign Up Now.

Resources
Financial Permaculture Course
Financial Permaculture Registration

Eric Toensmeier and Perennial Solutions
David Rose and the Unified Field Corporation
Jude Hobbs and Cascadia Permaculture
Johnathan Cloud and the Center for Leadership in Sustainabilityexploring the small farm dream
Emily Kawano and United for a Fair Economy

Lisa Fernandes, Maine Permaculture practitioner.

Sprawl Repair Manual
Agrarian Urbanism
Green Plastics

My wife introduced me to Bonnie’s work after attending the Pennsylvania Women in Agriculture Network Woman to Woman conference. There Bonnie gave a presentation “An Activist? Me?” about the way to change legislation through local ordinances and grassroots organizing, in a way that empowers the individual to work towards making a difference.

When my wife got back from the conference Bonnie was the first person we talked about and with the most passion. For my wife, Bonnie struck a chord with the “I can do this!” perspective. With my wife so enthused, I knew I had to talk with Bonnie.

I’m glad I did.

Our conversation, to me, flows with a narrative beginning with her bio and the years before her birth and the multi-generational push that set Bonnie down the road to become a Librarian and to work for change. Moving forward from that time we receive various introductions from the people and organizations that impacted her life and the actions for meaningful change.

I don’t know if any of you are familiar with Roger Swain, the man in the red suspenders and former host of The Victory Garden on public television, or read any of his books or articles, but I love his writing for exactly the same reason I liked this conversation: both seem so casual and easy going that I didn’t realize the wealth of knowledge being imparted on me until everything was said and done and a few minutes, hours, or maybe even days later we have that “Aha! Moment.” With Roger this usually related to gardening techniques, but with Bonnie it’s how to engage in a grassroots, bottom up way that brings people together towards that common cause.

If you like this interview with Bonnie and find value in it, please share it with others. Send a link to your friends or family, post it to Facebook or Twitter, or whatever other ways you use to reach people in this wonderfully connected digital age.

Resources
The Alliance for Democracy
New England Alliance for Democracy
Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF)
The Daniel Pennock Democracy Schools
Move to Amend
Rights Based Ordinance Examples (A list from the CELDF)
A Call to Citizens: Real Populists Please Stand Up by Ronnie Duggar
When Corporations Rule The World by David Korten
No More Prisons by William Upski Wimsatt
The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

Contact the Show
E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast [dot] com
Phone: 717.827.6266

If this is your first exposure to this idea, you may want to start with the episode “An Introduction to Nutrient Dense Farming with Mary Johnson.” Mary provides an excellent overview of the ideas at the core of the discussion with Dan Kittredge and the wrok of the Bionutrient Food Association.

Resources:
Bionutrient Food Assocation
Remineralize the Earth
Northeast Organic Farming Association

1. Mulch and Compost
2. Using Plants
3. Using Animals
4. Biochar

If you haven’t listened to the first in this series, I highly recommend you start there: Carbon Farming, Part I. Once you are done, come back, listen to this episode, check out the resources, and start capturing and storing carbon as soon as you are able.

Resources
Biochar Northeast
Biochar (Wiki)
Terra Preta (Wiki)

First, let me thank everyone who listens to the show or connects with it via the website or elsewhere. I couldn’t do this without that encouragement.

Second, for everyone who’s made a donation or supported the show by spreading the word, thank you again. You help the show reach more people and continue to grow. If you haven’t, find out how at: thepermaculturepodcast.com/support

In trying to give back to the permaculture community at large, the forum is live with incoming moderators. Stop in, check it out, and add your thoughts and knowledge so this community space can contain the knowledge for anyone to practice permaculture:

http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/forum

Peter Bane’s book tour begins on December 7th, the day this episode goes live. Listen to my interview with him and then check out the updated tour schedule at permaculturehandbook.com.

On December 11th, Dan Kittredge joins the show for an interview about nutrient dense farming and re-mineralizing soil.
His work can be found at: http://bionutrient.org/

Christopher Shein, author of the forthcoming book “The Vegetable Gardener’s Guide to Permaculture” from Timber Press sits down with me across the continent on December 14th. We’ll talk about his background, as always, his work, and the book.

If you have questions for either guest, or the show in general contact me:

E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com.
Phone: 717.827.6266
Twitter: @permaculturecst
Facebook: The Permaculture Podcast

Upcoming Classes and Permaculture Seminars
Sunrise Ranch Permaculture Course (April 2013)
Permaculture Design Course from One World Permaculture at the Austin Community College. Follow the Austin Community College link to register for the Spring 2013 semester.
Permaculture Course list from Permaculture Magazine: http://www.permaculture.co.uk/courses

Book Tour Dates and Locations
Friday, Dec. 7th: Columbus, Ohio.
A free lecture at Ohio State University from 7-9pm in the Agricultural Engineering Building, Rm 100 located at 590 Woody Hayes Dr.

Saturday, Dec. 8th: Cleveland, Ohio.
A permaculture seminar from 1-3pm. For more information contact Jonathan Hull: 330-559-4628

Sunday, Dec. 9th: Dundas, Ontario.
A permaculture workshop at Old 99 Farm, 1580 Old Hwy 99, Ontario, from 1-5pm. Contact Ian Graham for more information: 905-537-0163

Monday, Dec. 10th: Ithaca, New York
A free lecture at the Cornell Cooperative Extension at 615 Willow Street, Ithaca, from 7-9pm.

Tuesday, Dec. 11th: Albany, New York
A free lecture at the First Unitarian Universalist Society of Albany at 405 Washington Ave., Albany, from 7-9pm.

Wednesday, Dec. 12th: Montpelier, Vermont
A lecture at the Unitarian Church of Montpelier, 130 Main St, Montpelier, from 7-9pm. A donation of $3-5 is requested.

Thursday, Dec. 13th: Brattleboro, Vermont
An author reading and book signing at the Brattleboro Food Coop, 2 Main St., Brattleboro, from 1:30-3pm. Please bring a lunch.

Thursday, Dec. 13th: Amherst, Massachusetts
A free talk at Food for Thought Books, 106 N. Pleasant St., Amherst, from 6-730pm.

Friday, Dec. 14th: Brooklyn, New York
A free lecture at The Commons Brooklyn, 388 Atlantic Ave., Brooklyn, from 7-9pm.

Saturday, Dec. 15th Philadelphia, Pa.
An urban permaculture workshop co-taught with Phil Forsyth. This will be held at the Awbury Arboretum, 1 Awbury Dr, Philadephia, from 1-4pm. The contact is Phil Forsyth: 917-371-0547. You can also visit the workship page at the Arboretum’s Website to register. The cost is $20.

Saturday, Dec. 15th: Philadelphia, Pa.
A free lecture at the Ethical Humanist Society of Philadelphia, 1906 S. Rittenhouse Square, Philadelphia, from 7:30-9pm.

Sunday, Dec. 16th: Harrisonburg, Va.
A free talk at The Clementine Cafe Lounge, 153 S. Main St., Harrisonburg, from 7-9pm.

You can also check out Peter’s updated tour schedule at PermacultureHandbook.com.

Dan’s work showed up in my inbox one morning as a link to his article at the Permaculture News: “A Journey of Transition: Becoming a Professional Permaculture Designer.” The first of a series of planned articles about his trip down this new road, including the trials and tribulations along the way. We discuss all of this, and more, in the interview.

If, after listening to this interview, you would like to contact Dan, you can leave a message in the article linked above, or email him directly:

danjwfrench (at) gmail (dot) com

Laying the foundations for your own permaculture business and think Dan’s coach could help you? Find Nick Huggins at Permaculture Business World.

As always, you can reach me at:

show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com

or give me a call:

717 827 6266

Nestled away in the mountains of North Carolina, Chuck is one of the elders of the American permaculture movement, as he was among the first U.S. students to take a Permaculture design course and did so with Bill Mollison. Chuck’s perspective on Bill and the direction originally intended for Permaculture, including here, provide insight on where to take this gift of permaculture moving forward.

In particular we discuss:

• His Background in Permaculture
• International Permaculture at The Source Farm in Jamaica
• Intentional Communities vs. Eco-villages
• Resiliency Through the Village Model and a Neo-Horticultural Revival

Resources
Creating a Life Together by Diana Leafe Christian.
Gardening Angels
Growing Power

Upcoming Interview
A Journey of Transition: Becoming a Professional Permaculture Designer by Dan French

This tour, and the thoughts that come from it, integrate well with the conversations had with Warren Brush about broadscale permaculture, and Seth Wilner on meeting farmer’s where they are to get appropriate buy-in. We share with the farmer’s but first must seek to understand the place they operate from.

If you have an opportunity to join a farm tour and see local operations, I highly recommend it. Observe what they share, interact with the others in the group, and leave with a new wealth of resources.

• Please support the show. Go to the support page to learn more.
• A Call for Moderators. The forum project continues to evolve. If you’d like to be involved from the get go, send me an email with the subject “Forum Moderator”.
• Questions. If you have any about permaculture in general or a specific topic, let me know. Contact information below.
• Upcoming classes from:
1. Cascadia Permaculture
2. Spiral Ridge Permaculture
3. Rico Zook
• Upcoming Episode Preview:
1. Hugelkultur
2. Thoughts from a Farm Tour
3. Notes from Nigeria: Susan Godwin. She is the 2012 Oxfam Nigeria Female Food Hero
4. Urban Permaculture
5. Cold Climate Permaculture: Hardiness Zones 2 through 6.
6. Re-Mineralizing Soils and Nutrient Dense Farming. A multi-episode series.

Contact the Show:
E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Voicemail: 717.827.6266

Listen to the episode for the full review. In the meantime, for those of you who decided to stop by the website, here is the short version:

This book is good. Quite good in fact. Another definite to place on a permaculture practitioner’s or enthusiast’s bookshelf next to the works of Mollison, Whitefield, Morrow, and Fukuoka. An easy read, the pace of the prose grabbed my attention from the introduction by David Holmgren and kept me reading through to the appendices: A, B, and C. For anyone just starting out, or someone whose sown seed, transplanted trees, and integrated form and function, “AH HA!” moments abound. New knowledge hides within these pages for anyone who seeks it out.

Of most value is the Garden Farm Pattern Language gifted to us through this work. This single chapter, and the proceeding one, make this book worth more than the cover price. The integration of ideas and design elements into practical placement via a common language integrate the sometimes seperate parts of our design towards a more cohesive whole.

If you’ve made it to this point and haven’t done so yet: Buy This Book!

• Permaculture Forum call for Help: I need moderators! E-mail me for details!
• Ruminations on Weird Weather and the Impact on Design
• Urban Agriculture in Harrisburg
• Let’s Get Dirty! PDC

Sponsors and Supporters
Nancy Grove and everyone at Old Path Farm
Tony Murlin
Clinton Whitney
Evan Fannin
Eli Mailey
Ben Karpin
Matthew Cone

Resources
Let’s Get Dirty Permaculture Design Course Pictures
Urban Agriculture Site

Contact:
E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Phone: 717-827-6266

Mary is a permaculture teacher, owner of Watershed Resource Consultants, co-founder of Terra-Genesis International, and holds a Master’s of Science in Plant and Soil Science. She’s worked with a variety of partner organizations on projects all over the world including Brazil, Kenya, and, as you will hear in the interview, Panama.

(Mary’s first interview)

This interview serves as a brief overview of Nutrient Dense Farming: how increase the nutrition of our foods by building better soil and a simple way to measure these changes with a simple handheld tool. To learn more you will want to read and research on your own. Resources to help you along are provided below.

After this conversation three questions came to mind:

1. What nutrients do plants needs?
2. What are sources for these nutrient?
3. How can I apply permaculture to acquire, rather than buy, these nutrients and build soil?

Just as Mary provided us with an introduction to nutrient dense farming, my thoughts here are an overview. If you would like me to research these ideas in-depth and provide a full episode, or series, on nutrients, soil amendments, and dynamic accumulating plants, I can do that. Let me know.

So, what nutrients do plants need?

Humans use fat, protein, and carbohydrates in large quantities, these are our macronutrients, plants have their own: carbon (C), oxygen (O), and Hydrogen (H), as well as nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K). The first three plants get from the air and water which are then processed via photosynthesis. The last three, and the other nutrients, come from the soil which we amend and build to assist our plants. If you’ve handled a bag of fertilizer the NPK numbers refer to Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, in that order, with the letters corresponding to the entry on the periodic table of elements.

Then come the secondary nutrients: Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), and Sulfur (S).

The micronutrients, are a longer list: Boron (B), Chlorine (Cl), Cobalt (Co), Copper (Cu), Iron (Fe), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo), Nickel (Ni), Silicon (Si), Sodium (Na), Zinc (Zn), and Vanadium (Va).

The primary and secondary nutrients are fairly simple to test for at most soil labs. The micro-nutrients may require more specialized labs to sort out for you. If you want to have these soil tests done there, in the United States, Aglabs.com can provide these services. Elsewhere in the world contact a local soil or environmental testing lab and ask them if they provide micro-nutrient soil test and they should be able to help you.

The PDF on plant nutrients from NorthEastern Oklahoma A&M I like for the simplicity in explaining each nutrient, as well as how they impact plants, which soils are likely to have issues, and additional information.

NorthEastern Oklahoma A&M Plant Nutrient PDF

Prepared with the information in that document, combined with a soil analysis including trace minerals, you can determine what amendments to add and in what quantities to build your soil to an ideal mix for your plants.

Which brings me to the second question: What are sources for these nutrients?

The list of amendments useful for any particular nutrient, of course, varies. Bone meal is good for phosphate and calcium. Compost is rich in nitrogen and carbon. Urine is high in nitrogen, with good quantities of potassium, and phosphorus. Greensand is chock full of potassium, iron, magnesium, silica, and many other trace minerals. A trip to the garden center or DIY shop can provide bags and bags of everything we could generally needs, but what if you are looking for one particular nutrient?

In that case a little bit of research is your friend. I chose the first nutrient on our list: boron, and did a web search “boron for the garden”. A link took me to an article from Spectrum Analytic, a testing lab in Ohio. At the bottom was a list of sources for boron. Surprisingly a common household product, Borax, is a source. You can do this for every nutrient you may need to get your soil started in the right direction.

And our last question:

How can I apply permaculture to acquiring, rather than buying, the nutrients and build soil?

Mary provided a good description of this in her discussion of the Panamanian village: use your ability to observe to determine where plants will grow best. Use your knowledge: If you know certain plants share similar requirements and growing conditions, look for them in the landscape and grow your similar plant there. Experiment with slow and simple solutions: plant trials in the landscape and find where conditions are the best . Value your renewable resources by using your accumulating plants, like comfrey, as slash and mulch plants. Use those same plants to mine nutrients from one area and move the minerals, now trapped in the plant tissue, somewhere else.

A good foundation in the ethics and principles of Permaculture allow you to truly design anything.

And remember: Permaculture is, as a design system, largely based on our available information and the ability to apply that information creatively. We now live in a world that is more connected than any other time in history. You can find solutions to almost any question related to building a better world.

Sponsors
Nancy Grove and everyone at Old Path Farm
Tony Murlin

Resources
Dr. Carey Reams
Dr. Elaine Ingham
International Ag Labs
Remineralize the Earth
Bionutrient Food Association
Dan Kittredge
Alan Chartock in Conversation with Dan Kittredge
Ray Archuleta (Web Article about his work)

I spoke with Seth because of the potential synergistic role between Holistic Management, Whole Farm Planning, and Permaculture to provide profitable productive broad-scale models acceptable to modern conventional farms while also caring for the farmers, consumers, planet, plants and animals involved. Recent guests such as Warren Brush and Andrew Faust set my thoughts moving on the leverage points for how to grow these ideas beyond the backyard. Connecting with farmers directly, first with those who are interested in the sustainable processes Permaculture offers, and moving upwards and outward can bring the concepts of practical permaculture to the forefront of a new green revolution.

There is also a disclaimer for one of the portions of this interview. I ask Seth to clarify the information on the H2A visa program for migrant farm worker. He shares what he knows about the program to answer my questions. However, he is not involved with this process directly and his statements should not be used as professional advice on the H2A visa. If you need someone to help you please contact a lawyer familiar with the program.

When it comes to Whole Farm Planning and getting to know more about farmers and agriculture, there are some places I recommend you begin looking. Since permaculture deals with resilient and sustainable systems, see if there is a sustainable agriculture organization in your area and look into the classes and networking opportunities available.

Where I am the main group is the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture (P.A.S.A). Another group my wife and I belong to is the Pennsylvania Women’s Agriculture Network (P.A. WAgN), which seems to hold workshops, farm tours, and potlucks on a continuous basis throughout the year. As the activities of farming slow down and we move into the winter, the focus shifts to more social events.

If you do get involved use the principles of permaculture, like observe and interact or use slow and small solutions, as social guidelines when in these environments. Talk less. Listen more. Ask questions when you don’t understand. Hear what people are saying.

Though I’m not a farmer, I openly admit that when introductions go round the table. I’m honest that I practice permaculture and my role is as an educator, not a farmer, that I’m there to learn and I’ve been welcomed for it.

Use a search engine, a phone book, a local farmer, or any other resource you can to ask around and you can probably find an organization to connect with to learn more about the current state of agriculture and farmers. Take a step, break out of the box, and see what ways you can help use the permaculture model to help others build a better world.

Resources
Holistic Management International
Savory Institute
Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education
The Organic Farmer’s Business Handbook by Richard Wiswall

In addition to his work as an author, Eric’s diverse background means he’s spent his time breeding plants and saving seeds, as well as teaching classes that expand the ways in which we can build a better a better world. You will find much of wthis his website perennialsolutions.org. He is also building the Apios Institute which focuses on regenerative perennial agriculture for a temperate climate.

He also happens to be a heck of a nice guy that made for an easy free flowing interview in which we discuss some listener questions submitted via the show’s Facebook page, and then delve into a conversation about perennial plants, the broad-scale application of permaculture, and removing some of the fear factor of implementing a forest garden. Throughout you will hear both of us touch on plants we would like to see improved and simple ways anyone who is growing a garden can help domesticate and improve edible perennials.

Resources
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions
Edible Forest Gardens

Keyline Design
USDA PLANTS Database

Books
Billy Joe Tatum’s Wild Foods Field Guide and Cookbook (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties by Carol Deppe
Creating a Forest Garden by Martin Crawford
Edible Water Gardens by Nick Romanowski (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
The New American Landscape: Leading Voices on the Future of Sustainable Gardening
Return to Resistance: Breeding Crops to Reduce Pesticide Dependence by Raoul Robinson
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Wild Urban Plants of thr Northeast – A Field Guide

Before we begin, this podcast is 100% listener supported at this time and I’d like to keep it running without advertisements by continuing to thank the community for donating to the show. Find out more about how to help the show by going to thepermaculturepodcast.com/support. There you can make a donation and find out about other non-financial ways to help grow and expand the show.

Also, thank you to Toby Howl for getting my mind started with this idea and getting me to turn it into an episode.

The first set of notes on this subject included many facts and figures facts and figures as I fell into my normal routine of wanting to break everything down into discrete pieces: how much tuition is collected, what is spent where, and so on. I didn’t like how that worked out as the show became more technical and numbers focused. This is a more general look at the class costs related to tuition, the amount of time a teacher spends developing their curriculum, and wrap up with whether or not a PDC is worht the cost.

I refere to my teacher training because we openly discussed many of these topics. The teacher training covered both how to improve as instructors and how to handle the logistics of planning, scheduling, and presenting a full PDC. My frame of reference at the time, and copious notes from that experience, provided a clearer picture of what goes into a class. My PDC took place for a few weekend days a month over 7 months compared to the teacher training which was a one week intensive, which I feel is indicative of the expectations in a 2 week on-site PDC.

If you’ve priced a Permaculture Design Course in the United States, they usually run in the $1000-2000 range, with the average in the middle of around $1500 for a 2 week, on-site, intensive. The lower cost is usually for a weekend course spread out over several months, where everyone commutes to the site, and the higher end for more expensive or exotic locations.

If you compare a PDC to a college course, this is around the price for 6 credit hours at a community college. The comparison is fair because the amount of time spent in a PDC is similar to the time spent taking 6 credit hours of courses at a college. With each credit hour representing 1 hour of classroom instruction and 1-3 hours of homework, per week, over a 12 week semester, a student will spend around 80 hours (6×13) in a class room for 6 credits, plus another 80-240 (1×80 – 3×80) hours outside of class on homework, compared to the 72+ hours of instruction for the PDC. From my own experience, I spend around 250 hours outside my PDC reading, working on homework assignments, and preparing the final design project. Plus, at least at a 2-week intensive, you will have a place to stay and have food provided for the cost, increasing the value.

One thing to remember is that permaculture courses are generally not subsidized in any way. There are no tax breaks, government funds, loans, or other resources used to cover any funding gaps or to pay for the administrative staff a college or university has that handles incidentals. For many permaculture teachers they and their team, if they have one, handle everything.

The tuition paid towards a PDC truly goes to cover the full cost of the class. Students, in addition to providing some pay for the instructors, are also paying the overhead: insurance, renting the site location, covering taxes, advertising, professional fees like a lawyer or accountant, running a website, providing guest instructors with an honorarium or other payment for their time, as well as food for the class and someone to cook. I mention this last piece because during my Teacher Training we talked about the cost of some these fees and I was surprised to learn that the cost of food, especially to cover the myriad of dietary requirements, was around 25% of the price. That comes off the top before the class begins.

Of the monies raised from tuition, upwards of 70 to 80% goes toward these costs, leaving around 20-30% to pay the teachers. But, I’ve only been to one class that had a single teacher. My PDC had 2. My teacher training had 3. Look at a PDC listing online and you will usually see 2 or more primary facilitators, plus a list of guest instructors who, as mentioned, are also usually paid.

That just counts the dollar figure and doesn’t include any of the preparation time that goes into the course materials. Though some resources exist that provide set permaculture curriculum outlines, such as Rosemary Marrow’s Earth User’s Guide to Permaculture – Teacher’s Notes, or the chapter by chapter breakdown in Mollison’s Permaculture: A Designers’ Manual, every instructors chooses their focus and how to present the content. My PDC started with and focused heavily on the ethics and principles of permaculture. In a conversation with Andrew Millison, if my memory is correct at the moment, he chooses to start with reading and mapping the landscape. There is also an ongoing conversation about what to include in a PDC beyond the basics that Mollison originally framed, with some courses including more information and hours of material. To that end, each instructor largely develops their own curriculum and materials, which requires time.

I can say unequivocally that a PDC instructor spends many many hours getting ready for their class. During my teacher training, and reflected in my own experience just putting together the information for this show, every hour of classroom instruction takes between 1 and 20 hours of planning, practicing, and assembling material to suit the location, audience, and other factors for that particular class. The 1-20 hour figure doesn’t include the ongoing professional development necessary to stay current on permaculture trends and to teach an appropriate class.

This rather large time requirement is one of the reasons why I’m reaching to you, my audience, in September of 2012, to see if there is interest in an online PDC sometime in 2013. Even with all of my notes, experience, and resources, I’ve got several hundred hours of preparation before accepting the first student. This is true for most instructors.

I say that because even experienced teachers, to quote Jude, are continually “cooking the curriculum”. That is to say they continue to sharpen their presentation skills to clarify material, cut the fat off of a section to focus the content, add new in-class exercises or games to provide additional student practice, throw out parts that don’t work, rewrite whole sections, and update handouts, slides, or other audio-visual material to match. Not only does this happen in-between courses generally, but also in the weeks leading up to the class as students starts signing up and returning questionnaires or intro packets. For both my PDC and teacher training I completed a survey before the first day detailing my personal exposure and education with permaculture. In the case of my teacher training, each student underwent an interview with Jude and Andrew in the first few hours on-site to introduce ourselves, which influenced the material presented.

Further to this question of prep time is the devotion of time to students during the course itself. Both sets of my permaculture instructors made themselves available more than any teacher or professor I’d experienced previously. Ben and Dillon, during my PDC, answered question via email or through phone calls, as well as leading additional discussions during rest and lunch breaks. Jude, Andrew, and Rico, during the teacher training, were on from the moment they joined us for breakfast until the very end of the day as the last folks wandered off to bed. Though we talked and socialized, they each easily spent 12 hours or more a day in that teacher mode, insuring we all understood the material.

With this broad perspective of what’s behind the curtain for teaching a PDC, I think the cost is reasonable for what you get in return.

Though I was hesitant when this podcast first began to recommend everyone take a PDC, especially with the low cost and availability of permaculture books, as well as the plethora of videos on the web and other resources, these days I feel that if you are able, it is worth taking a PDC and I implore anyone who is interested to do so. The information and hands-on practice of design alone is worth it, but the experience and networking makes it even more valuable. The intense cooperation that occurs during a PDC leads to long term connections. Trust me, I’m not always a very social person but walked away with some good friends I am still in touch with 2 years later.

Does this help make sense of the cost of PDC? Leave a comment.

You can also contact me directly:

E-mail: show (at) thepermaculturepodcast (dot) com
Phone: 717.827.6266